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Auntie Prism
(stardust savant)
02/21/11 12:42 PM
I am a Racist (03/02) [re: ] Reply to this post

Folks, it's a power2charm double bill! Here, p2c's musings on 'modern racism' are contested by WildWind and SnowChild. But eraserhead senses that WW's secondary comments to SnowChild are disproportionately harsh, and that their harshness is evidence that she and others are attempting to preserve a TW 'elite'. Thus, a lengthy reprise of eraserhead's 'holy cow' argument ensues, though he arguably butchers the finish with an open net waiting.

(Some relevant subject lines appear in square brackets after the poster's name.)



power2charm: [I am a Racist.]: The topic of racism in the modern world is both broad and difficult. Since short and sappy seem to be the order of the day here lately, I will simply tell you all a true story about yours truly.

I was at the gym on a Friday night about a month ago. I didn't arrive there in a bad mood - wasn't feeling any particular mood, really. But I walked up the stairs to the main floor of the gym and the first thing I see is this Asian guy on one of the good treadmills. He has the treadmill ramped up on an incline and he's running - shuffling - on it with a dead, tired look in his eyes, his black hair dripping with sweat.

I looked at him and thought spontaneously to myself, why do all Asians look like they should be pulling rickshaws when they run?

During the same evening I was in another area of the gym where there are free weights and barbells, and these two African guys were loudly conversing in their native tongue while "lifting," and it annoyed me. Partly because it was loud, and if the language were English I probably still would have found it grating. But partly, I admit, was the fact that I didn't come to my gym on a cold, wet Friday night to have a couple of Zimbabwes aka-laka-lakaling at me. (I must give credit for "aka-lakaling" - a dear friend from a former job once said she didn't fancy vacations to foreign lands where the natives would be aka-laka-lakaling at her, which struck me as funny).

Modern racism is a curious thing. Racism in the classical sense is dead, it is the province of lunatics. The racism I believe that I exhibit is something different. It is a desire for comfort. For familiar words and thoughts, for some homogeneity among all the diversity.

Here in the Northeast, there is more cultural diversity than in other areas of the United States. When I go to a coffee shop on a late Sunday afternoon, I know for a fact I will hear languages other than English spoken. I'm ok with that. But if the Chinese have their Chinatowns, then am I wrong to build ideallic Americanavilles in my mind? Are the people of Greenwich or Westport or New Canaan, Connecticut, wrong to build them in fact?

Yes, modern racism is a curious thing. I'm not convinced it is wrong.

ExquisiteCorpse: northeast US? try living in Southern Claifornia...EVERYONE lives here...

Don't feel bad for having the feelings you do because everyone else does too deep down in their human mindset...it's a part of being human, perhaps feeling uncomfortable towards differences...everyone is prejudiced in some way and that's why at the Museum of Tolerence in LA they wont let you walk thru the door labeled "not prejudiced"....because everyone has these sort of feelings, even if they're not all willing to admit to them.

Trash: I think it's good that you admit that you have these thoughts and feelings. Maybe you should go to these aka-laka-lakaling countries to find out that there is more in the world than the US of A, but that's an advice I can give to most americans I'm afraid.

fiGgU_: [I am not a Racist]: It's silly.

I don't hate a race because some ya ahabal speaks
in his own mother tongue louder than me.

I don't judge a whole race because someone runs different.

You're being silly, I don't hate Americans because of what
you just said.

Learn to see humans as humans and not people as races.

Arnold: Whatcha talkin' 'bout, power2charm?

-Anoney-moosey (Anonymous): [You're a New Yorker, right?]: p2c,

It sounds less to me like you're a true racist and more like you're just living in cramped quarters with all different kinds of people...like say...New York. I think you just feel squeezed out.

But, this kind of feeling, (of wanting to be with people more like yourself)...in my opinion, breeds racism, and helps those who really ARE racists to justify their actions.

-Anoney-moosey

Ruskie:

In reply to:

I looked at him and thought spontaneously to myself, why do all Asians look like they should be pulling rickshaws when they run?


lol, I love that line

dice: it annoys the hell out of me when i'm in the computer lab (where i have to be to do the assignments for a particular class) and the asian girls just keep jibber-jabbering endlessly. grrrrrr.

or black people who are really loud for no apparant reason.

i guess it just boils down to the people who ARE living stereotypes

valley girls - they're spreading

WildWind: [It makes me uncomfortable]: I would really, really hate it if someone who overheard my sister and me having a typical conversation made some comment like "God, I hate those loud Mexicans."

No single person is representative of their entire ethnic group.

ohramona: A person is a racist if they perceive their race as being superior to others. I didn't quite catch that tone in your post, but who knows. It sounds to me like you're experiencing a touch of xenophobia. Your comfort zone is being compromised by the increasing presence of "foreigners" retaining their own cultural distinctions. Turns out America wasn't such a melting pot after all, didn't it? More like a salad bowl with each ingredient retaining it's discrete characteristics. Chow down bro!

Tati_wl: [intolerance]: Well said, WW and Fig.

I feel thrilled when I meet someone who speaks a different language. I have several friends from Africa who came to study in the university here in Brazil; I used to ask them to keep talking in their natural language because I found it fascinating just to watch.

The same with Spanish speakers. I just love to try to talk to them in their own language or try to make them understand me in mine (the state where I live receive thousands, sometimes millions, of spanish visitors every summer).

Power2charm, don´t forget that for the Zimbabwe´s guys, you could be lakalaking too. They probably, if not certainly, prefer to speak their own language between themselves than English. And if you check carerfully, you probably speak loud with friends in front of other people once in a while, right?

It´s strange to read such intolerant commentaries - even if you just were kind of joking- coming from someone who was enphatic deffending the Jewish people in another thread (remember the discussion about the existence of the Jewish lobby, etc).
I always thought you were more tolerant than this.

th0mas: in a negative as well as in a positive way.

EuropeanCanon: [I'm a racist too]: Deportation and repatriation is the only answer. For instance, most crime in my country (England) is committed by male Caucasians. I advocate getting rid of these social deviants by sending them back to Caucasia. Scum, the lot of 'em.

emallove: for awhile it seemed racism was dying down - but then a bunch of yahoos have to go knocking down the world trade center; and you think there's not going to be racist sentiment after something like that!

so, my question is: is racism cyclical? it seems like it has its nasty flares and quiet periods - post 9/11 in the US is understandably a flare. In the case of today, I suppose it just takes a while for the American yahoos to come to the conclusion that not all Muslims are maniacal, 50-virgins-after-death-pursuing, brainwashed people.

Ruskie:

In reply to:

sending them back to Caucasia


Really, I'd love to visit the motherland someday. Be with my people, talk the native talk, and dance the native caucasian dances. To become one with my ancestors.

shambuei: i believe the problem is that PEOPLE are irritating.
it's hard to bear people all around you.
it's hard to be patient when you see people all day long and they act the way you don't want them to.... in a subway... anywhere.
i usually hate people, not a specific race.
i am a people hater and i'd prefer there'd much less of them around, really.
people suck.
people fucking suck.
people must die.
people are idiots that must be destroyed.
forever destroyed and never be back.
i would love to live in a city with say 5 people i like and not 3 or 4 millions.
i have written a book about everyone dying in my city and it is a happy book.
i would really prefer everyone dead.
i will kill you all, kill you all fucking people.
people fucking suck.
they must be dead so that i can be happy.
death is for people, people are for death.
DEATH, i mean death. another sptmbr11th, oh yeah Another One Please, A Huger One.
i'm not being sarcastic.
i want people dead.
DEAD.
people fucking suck.
hello

ohramona:

In reply to:

Really, I'd love to visit the motherland someday. ..dance the native caucasian dances. To become one with my ancestors.


Yeah, just don't expect them to exhibit any rhythm!

white rabbit: [Culture Club]: Yeah, that was a lame-ass subject title but it was the first thing I thought of and I'm in a time crunch -- trying to make enough posts at my school message board to keep my participation at a passing level ...

During our most recent monthly "community" meeting at work, a group of people from Sudan who all moved here within the past five years came and spoke to us about their culture which was very, very different from ours to say the least. They also said that they were adjusting to life in the US and to our culture. I found that interesting because our way of life must be a huge culture shock for them as well as learning about theirs. Interesting all the way around though.

eraserhead: [I love our immigrants]: I think most good people I've met or known have been "foreigners", immigrants, people of different "races"/cultures. I love talking to these people because generally they're so much nicer and also more interesting than the ordinary Swedes. Most Swedes are spoiled, greedy and shallow. 95% of all the "foreigners"/immigrants I've met or known have been really friendly and humourous and humble. I've had many classmates from different countries and I have nothing but good feelings for them. Many grocers here in this town are "foreigners"/immigrants and they're always so kind and polite. Same thing with the restaurants owners, for example the people at the Chinese restuarant here, they're too generous.

I think our Western culture is doomed anyway. Basically, life here in the West is all about competition, materialism, commercialism, industrialism. Everyone is competing to be greater than all others. As Iggy sings: "Which country is the strongest? / Who plays the best guitar? / Who fucking cares / Under the stars?" I've found Eastern idelogies way more valuable. I think the increasing interest in Buddhism among Western people shows that many of us are fed up with this crazy lifestyle.

The old spiritual teacher Sai Baba has said:

There is only one race, the race of humanity
There is only one language, the language of the heart
There is only one religion, the religion of love
There is only one God and He is omnipresent

Emil: [I am an immigrant]: I know where you are coming from, Power2Charm, I can admit to having the same kind of "racist" reactions to other people, but I don't see anything positive in it and I try to fight it. When I meet a black person, I immediately assume that he/she is more stupid than I, when I see an Arab I get scared. These are back-bone reactions which I try to fight (I occasionally consciously choose the bus seat beside arabs).

I think it is more difficult to be with people of other ethnicity than your own - you are right about that p2c - but it is also more rewarding. And my job gives me lots of opportunities to meet people from other countries - at the present I am an immigrant, if only from the neighboring country, and it is instructive to find yourself in that position. (On the other hand there are people who have travelled around the whole world and yet have not learnt the first thing about other cultures.)

Well that's some rant from my side - one more thing, EuropeanCanon, your post was the best!

twister: [I am Superficial]: I generally find white girls the most attractive of all girls.

schizophrenic: [re. shambuei]: That was the goddamn scariest thing I have ever read.
Please stay away from me.

th0mas: [re. schizophrenic]: hmm... but he is right... people suck. and the more different they are the more annoying it becomes to get along with them.

raggeBandywarhol: [re. twister]: I don't know if you're being sarcastic or not, but that's the way it is with me. I find a much smaller proportion of black girls attractive, for whatever reason. And even for non-Caucasians the proportion is smaller than for Caucasian girls. And I'm not a racist either. Many of my best friends over the years have been minorities.

Anonymous: [This thread has changed my opinion about several]: of you. And not for the better.

GlitterTrash: [It's pretty sad, actually.]: We're all racist or prejudiced in some way, but it's important to realize that people are all fundamentally the same. The only reason a person from one country or nationality may act differently than you is because of their culture and how they were raised. Yes, that post about wanting to just kill everyone was kind of scary, but humans are inheritantly dumb and greedy. All of them.
It's good to be honest, but it's better to to prove yourself wrong.

Paris:

In reply to:

For familiar words and thoughts, for some homogeneity among all the diversity.


It's good that you can recognize this and are not letting yourself blindly resent anyone. Because I know quite well what you're talking about. I sometimes, though rarely, think similar thoughts about a minority, but usually even in my head they are in jest; they are stemmed from something I heard on SNL the week before or something someone said. I don't consider you a racist, and in order to maintain your innocence, you need to maintain immunity to others' racist remarks, even jokes, and not let them sink in. If no one ever mentioned black people and criminal acts in the same sentence, I would never even think of it.

SnowChild: [re. power2charm]: Oh this is very nice. Isn't it very grand of some to assume that this board consists solely of those with a caucasian background and that you can just sit here, all so sagely and discuss those 'others' as if they were not part of your mists? So pat yourself on the back and not only congratulate yourself on being a 'modern' (the acceptable, politically correct of course, tasteful variety) racist, but a thoroughly modern Imperialist as well.

In reply to:

why do all Asians look like they should be pulling rickshaws when they run?


How proud you must be to know that if racism consists laregly of ignorance, then you've pass the test with flying (excluding black and yellow) colours. Asia consists of 12 regions covering among them middle, north, south, southeast, central Asia and ranges as diversely from Arabia to Palestine to Indochina. I am sure that the population of 30% OF THE WORLD'S LAND MASS DO NOT PULL RICKSHAWS. You are talking about 'Chinese' not 'Asian'. It's about as undifferentiating as saying that all Americans like to post up gratiously self-promoting rants of themselves up on public boards on the internet about their own personal behaviours, disguise it as a wide-spread communual feeling and expect nice polite behaviours because all this is modern and politically correct. Because to attack you would be to attack a core human behaviour. What I can't believe is that no one has dared to say anything less than nice because they all believe you. This as far as I can tell is personal disgruntledness and nothing more, so the only thing I am attacking is you.

There is no such thing as a new racism. It is the same thing as it always had been. The same old thing in brand new drag.

And power2charm (I remember you and you were intelligent when I remembered) in your desire for comfort and homogenity, do you honestly think that just because someone looks like you that they will be just like you?

eraserhead:

In reply to:

What I can't believe is that no one has dared to say anything less than nice because they all believe you [power2charm].


What? I liked Trash's reply. It wasn't that "nice". My reply was kind of "nice" but I don't "believe" in power2charm. I just thought it would be a good thing to send some positive energies to the people on this thread, so I quoted Sai Baba ("There is only one race, the race of humanity..."). Anyway, SnowChild, your post is right on. Well said. I think a lot of people here don't dare to say anything against power2charm because he is one of the sacred cows. Remember my infamous "Ass kissing" thread from a year ago? Basically, it was about the fact that some people here are sacred cows and no one is allowed to criticize them. A guy named "Strangeones" said something against power2charm, and basically all TWers told Strangeones (who of course didn't belong to the in-crowd here) to fuck off. They were very rude to him just because he had an argue with p2c.

Btw, Emil's post above is the most stupid post I've read since...well, since power2charm's post.

Cisite: The racism in my local area goes something like this

Welsh V. English
Welsh + English V. Asians

dice: [re. eraserhead]: you're both talking like dipshits. but, contrary to your own methodology, i will not judge you in the future based on your ill-considered comments of the present. i will respond, rather, solely to the content of your posts. ah, the beauty of the internet

as far as i'm concerned there are no sacred cows. i'll take the piss out of anyone who deserves it

p2c is a good guy. we need more of his honesty around here, rather than the all too common artifice-laced blather. if people are going to get lambasted for posting something honest, then it's gonna soon be pretty fucking boring around here

p2c did not make any derogatory comments about anyone. he merely exposed some of the irrational stuff that pollutes the minds of everyone to some degree. it's just that his subconscious well is perhaps a bit more impure that the next person

i applaud emil as well, though i don't personally understand the fear of arabs. with me it's probably the opposite

these prejudices go both ways. if i see a japanese person, i tend to think that she is well-educated. if i see an african, i usually expect him to be a nice guy. these initial impressions are corroborated by my personal experience. i don't fault myself for thinking this way, though maybe i wish i didn't

every single one of us has prejudices. if we didn't, how would we decide who to talk to at, say, a meet and greet? (well, ideally, i'd have a coin handy, but i'm a wierdo like that)

wildwind's a mexican?

Ruskie: [Racism, spread the word]:
Speaking of racism, i came across this article on ABC News today: http://more.abcnews.go.com/sections/scitech/DailyNews/hategames020301.html

Looks like a fun game, eh?

I'm actually kind of supprised that all the years i've spent on the net, i've never explored racist websites before. The pro-white music page i found that funded the a-fore mentioned game had some interesting propaganda they were selling which you can pass out to your fellow white trash gain support for the white race. These are the ones that stood out most to me:

[pics missing]

And my favorite...

[pic missing]

(and no, i'm not a neo-nazi or a white supremacist, so save yourself the letter writing)

eraserhead: [re. dice]:

In reply to:

as far as i'm concerned there are no sacred cows.


As far as I'm concerned there are several sacred cows here. Whenever I say something against people like Dara, Einar, p2c, twister, or WildWind, a bunch of other people come to their protection. A couple of weeks ago, I had a discussion/debate with WildWind, and immediately three or four girls plus twister were on my back, defending her. Certain people here are 'untouchable'. If you say something against them, you'll get a lot of enemies.

I don't think power2charm is a racist. I think he started this thread because his ego told him to do it. What's the best way to get attention? Well, you say something really shocking, like "I am a Racist" - it doesn't get any better than that.

In reply to:

he merely exposed some of the irrational stuff that pollutes the minds of everyone to some degree


Speak for yourself.

In reply to:

i applaud emil as well


Yeah? May I ask why this statement: "When I meet a black person, I immediately assume that he/she is more stupid than I" is worth applauding?

3rdEye (Anonymous): I'm not a racist, I think, but sometimes I can feel those thing you mentioned, power2charm. I feel terrible whenever I do, and try to push those thoughts away, because in my heart I know that all's equal.

Peace out.

ohramona: [I'm a Racist, you're a racist, he's a racist, she's a racist, wouldn 't you like to be a racist too?]:

Just ran across a link where you can ask and answer all those questions that are of a sensitive nature, and might make others suspect you are a *gasp* racist. It's worth checking out. It's not the experts talking, just plain people like you ... and me ... and them ...

dice:

In reply to:

Yeah? May I ask why this statement: "When I meet a black person, I immediately assume that he/she is more stupid than I" is worth applauding?


because he makes no attempt to justify the thoughts that he has. the way i interpret that comment is that it's a knee-jerk reaction that he does not have control over. maybe emil could clarify

In reply to:

Speak for yourself.


do you mean to tell me that when you are in the presence of a minority that you don't instinctively say to yourself 'that's a minority'? because if you notice this, it's inevitable that there will be some sort of judgement of that person - their outlook, their background,something

have you ever said 'that guy's really dopey looking'. same thing, just different criteria

we make judgements about people every single day, whether it is about the color of their skin, or what they are wearing, or how many tattoos they have. these might be positive or negative judgements, and they are, for the most open-minded of us, very subtle, but they're there. we're not like dogs, who, tail wagging, just run up and sniff every new person they meet. humans, like it or not, use judgement

WildWind: [I am a sacred Mexican]:

In reply to:

[SnowChild]What I can't believe is that no one has dared to say anything less than nice because they all believe you.


I take offense to this, as I as well as Trash, FiGgU_, Tati_wl and EuropeanCanon all indicated that we disagreed with the expressed sentiment. Some were done with sarcasm, some were explicit.

As far as the tone, I can only speak for myself in explaining why I made the short post that I did rather than exploding in an angry ball of hell fire. It's because racism primarily makes me sad. My initial reaction was sadness, and the best way I knew to express it was by saying what I said. I also know power2charm well enough to know that an angry ball of hell fire will only egg him on.

In reply to:

[eraserhead]Remember my infamous "Ass kissing" thread from a year ago?


Yes, eraserhead, we all remember this post, because you mention it every chance you get, and not always in its defense. I recall you semi-denouncing it recently as you acknowledged that you have "sacred cows" of your own - which I've observed that you most certainly do. You can't just attach your name to it when it's convenient for you, and you certainly can't flip-flop. Well, you can, but it would make you a hypocrite.

In reply to:

[eraserhead]Whenever I say something against people like Dara, Einar, p2c, twister, or WildWind, a bunch of other people come to their protection. A couple of weeks ago, I had a discussion/debate with WildWind, and immediately three or four girls plus twister were on my back, defending her.


So there's no possibility that these people actually agreed with what I had to say? These people weren't defending me, they were offering arguments in defense of my opinion, which I and apparently others believe is correct. For Heaven's sake, eraserhead, is every agreement with a well-known poster a result of their being a "sacred cow"? Or is it just every agreement with a well-known poster that doesn't agree with you?

And as far as my being a "sacred cow," I've got six bozos (maybe more by now) and was recently told to jump off a cliff and make the world a better place (a comment for which the poster later apologised, but if I were so damn sacred she wouldn't have made it in the first place). So much for your theory.

I suppose that none of what I've said in this post is particularly on-topic as far as the racism issue, but I believe I've already indicated what my level of agreement with p2c's assertion is. I've just chosen to, in this post, reply to new issues raised with which I disagree.

In reply to:

[dice]wildwind's a mexican?


Does it matter?

twister: [I am a Cow]: Eraserhead, what exactly is your point in your "sacred cow" of which you speak? You really think your debate with WildWind would have happened any differently if WildWind were a relative newbie saying the exact same things? You really think the masses, including myself, are incapable of independant thought and flock in when someone they like is disagreed with immediately to defend them? That just ain't true, eraserhead.

In the example you cited with WildWind, you didn't gain any "enemies" for disagreeing with a popular poster, rather you had a few people disagreeing with your opinion, regardless of which poster you were initially arguing with, and saying so.

Of course you'll no doubt just continue on your drama queen way regardless of what I say, and no doubt think I'm disagreeing with your "sacred cow" theory solely because power2charm is one of those "cows" rather than out of a genuine difference of opinion.

power2charm: [Sacred Stud]:

In reply to:

Asia consists of 12 regions covering among them middle, north, south, southeast, central Asia and ranges as diversely from Arabia to Palestine to Indochina. I am sure that the population of 30% OF THE WORLD'S LAND MASS DO NOT PULL RICKSHAWS. You are talking about 'Chinese' not 'Asian'.


I only partially concede this point. Granted, I used the word Asian so as not to offend; you will concur with my assessment that oriental is for some reason out of favor, and might have worked better. Certainly, I do not mean 'Chinese' as the Japanese, Thai, Vietnamese, and even the Koreans and Phillipinos all look pretty spiffy yoked to a rickshaw, imho.

In reply to:

And power2charm (I remember you and you were intelligent when I remembered) in your desire for comfort and homogenity, do you honestly think that just because someone looks like you that they will be just like you?


No, they will ideally behave like me as well. Believe me, SnowChild, that in spite of the less-than-proper thoughts I shared earlier, if the rest of humanity were just like me there would be none of the social problems of today. Why? Because everybody would act identically, and all social discomfort would evaporate.

My racism is nothing special, it's really not very different at all from the 'racism' of Matt Groenig, who populates the Kwikee Marts of The Simpsons' world with Indians. It is trained - I would be much less likely to share personal unniceties I've thought about "African American" culture because they have made it plain that the suffering of their ancestors is a precious gift that they alone can wallow in today. Asians, on the other hand, haven't been persecuted to nearly the same degree (in the US, at least), and they haven't organized here to keep past persecutions an open wound. Therefore, it is easier to "share" about them.

This previous paragraph, imo, is a lot stickier than simple jokes about rickshaws and the strangeness of other languages. What was that first post about? I admitted some things I've thought, conjectured where they came from and that's it. I'm glad some people were disappointed, shocked, found them funny, agreed to similar feelings. The response should be varied.

The fact is, you can't be hell-bent for diversity and then expect different cultural groups to get along perfectly. Remember the movie (or book) the Lathe of Heaven, about a guy whose dreams became reality every morning? He tried to harness his dreams for good, and forced himself to dream that all people could get along. When he woke up, everyone was the same color - bluish green. THAT'S my point. Put away the old world into your attic or basement, because you live in the NEW WORLD now.

Ruskie:

In reply to:

You really think the masses, including myself, are incapable of independant thought and flock in when someone they like is disagreed with immediately to defend them? That just ain't true, eraserhead.


Well, maybe not you twister, but i would definitly say the masses do display that reaction. I can personally vouch for such myself just earlier this week.

dice:

In reply to:

Does it matter


i would be heartened by the newly realized diversity of the board!

oh wait...should diversity matter?

WildWind: [The value of diversity]:

In reply to:

oh wait...should diversity matter?


That's a very interesting question, to which I had to give a fair amount of thought.

And I've come to the conclusion that while diversity is desirable, it's not something that should necessarily be actively pursued and touted. Let me clarify:

The reason diversity is desirable is not so that a person can declare how very diverse his or her life is, it's because of the variety of interesting and rich experiences that people from various backgrounds can offer each other. To that extent, it doesn't matter if you *know* how diverse your surroundings are, it's the experiences that count.

A person shouldn't necessarily go on an active search to make his or her surroundings more diverse, it will happen to most of us naturally. And when it does, we shouldn't pat ourselves on the back so much as be appreciative that we have all these different people around us.

So I suppose it's interesting to know my background from like a census perspective, but it doesn't really matter in the grand scheme of things, because I'm bringing the same things to the table that I was before you knew.

GlitterTrash: RE: "Certainly, I do not mean 'Chinese' as the Japanese, Thai, Vietnamese, and even the Koreans and Phillipinos all look pretty spiffy yoked to a rickshaw, imho. "

I find this really disturbing. This isn't about what a person does, it's how a person looks.
Okay, so you've realized you're prejudiced, and that's good. But it's not happy-face cute FUNNY. So imagine an Asian person reading it and feeling like crap because you can't separate the person from this outdated stereotype.

PHOENIX:

In reply to:

You really think the masses, including myself, are incapable of independant thought and flock in when someone they like is disagreed with immediately to defend them? That just ain't true, eraserhead.



I have to disagree with that statement. I've found through experience that groups bound together (strength in numbers) frequently change their opinions to defend each other.

Emil: [You did not read my post]:

In reply to:

Btw, Emil's post above is the most stupid post I've read since...well, since power2charm's post.


READ MY POST BEFORE YOU JUMP ON ME!
I respect you highly eraserhead and it surprises me that you are not able to read typed text.
What I said was, I have certain back-bone reactions towards people of other ethnicity, which come about because I have grown up in a (more or less) racist society. I cannot help that, I know that this is wrong and I try to fight these back-bone reactions. I am working with myself and trying to get rid of my unfortunate, inherent prejudice. I certainly do not think that blacks are stupid - but, unfortunately, the first thing I think when I see a black person is that they are stupid. So then I have to, consciously, convince myself that my back-bone reaction was wrong an this person is worth to take seriously.
This is better than just going around and being convinced that "I have no problems, I have no prejudice, I do not need to work with myself".

Do you understand?

(Thanks dice - at least one person understood what I wrote )
Edited in order to soften some of the angry words against eraserhead.

eraserhead: [Dead fish]: dice, I am a minority of one. I have absolutely nothing in common with most Swedes. When I am in the presence of a minority, I feel nothing but love, because I belive in minorities. As Kirk says: I am lover of all things unique. The outsiders are, in my opinion, the only interesting people. Only dead fish swim with the stream.

Anyway, it's really a strange world this. WildWind says she takes offense to SnowChild's post, but WW didn't say anything against power2charm nor Emil. Why? Because p2c is p2c and Emil is Emil. They're part of the in-crowd. When was the last time you saw a member of the in-crowd criticize another member of the in-crowd? (Of course I realize that if I continue to post on this board, then someday perhaps I will be a member of the in-crowd myself, so to prevent that from happening, I once in a while post things like the Ass kissing thread, or I post messages like this one. It's a way of keeping myself "outside" because I don't want to end up like a dead fish.)

But WildWind and twister, why don't you turn your attention from me and instead turn your attention to Snowchild's post - re-read her post and then hopefully you'll realize that she's absolutely right and that power2charm's post and Emil's post are plain stupid. You and me we could go on and on like Israel and Palestine, fighting till the end of this message board, but let's not do that. You two really seem to have a lot of energies, so focus those energies on something constructive instead. Like trying to understand what Snowchild is saying.

In reply to:

Yes, eraserhead, we all remember this post [the Ass kissing thread], because you mention it every chance you get, and not always in its defense


I mention it because I have a great sense of humour. I don't have "sacred cows" of my own. I never posted to the "Favourite TWers" thread. I don't make those kinds of lists. Last week I did mention a few names of people I like, and those people are all "one of a kind", really unique posters that never go with the flow.

In reply to:

So there's no possibility that these people actually agreed with what I had to say?


Possibly, but I doubt it. twister and you have formed a nice little alliance which makes it hard for anyone to disagree with twister or you, seeing as you're the two toughest debaters around.

In reply to:

[twister] You really think the masses, including myself, are incapable of independant thought and flock in when someone they like is disagreed with immediately to defend them? That just ain't true, eraserhead.


Well, as you can see, both Ruskie and PHOENIX (and I) disagree with you. Troughout history, the masses have shown that they are incapable of independant thought and flock in when someone they like is disagreed with immediately to defend them. That's the mob mentality. As I've said, most people are idiots. Of course, they're not idiots forever. It's up to them. You don't have to be a dead fish if you don't want to.

Emil: [you got me all wrong eraserhead]:

In reply to:

power2charm's post and Emil's post are plain stupid.


OK, I shall give this one more try.

It is a sad fact that many of us have racist tendencies without really being aware of it. I know I have. One should not, like p2c, try to justify these racist tendencies - instead one should try to fight them the best that one can.
Translation to Swedish:
Tyvärr är det så att många av oss har en massa fördomar vi inte är medvetna om - jag vet att jag har det. p2c vill bejaka och urskulda dessa fördomar, men jag menar att man måste bekämpa dem så gott man kan.

I never knew I was a member of the in-crowd? When did that happen?

eraserhead: [To Emil]: Emil, you said: "When I meet a black person, I immediately assume that he/she is more stupid than I" and then you did explain that that's a back-bone reaction which you try to fight, but still, I get upset with I read things like that. I've grown up in the same society as you, I have some relatives who are more or less racists. Many people in my neighbourhood are racists, many people I went to school with were/are racists. But I am not a racist, have never been a racist and will never be a racist. I don't think you can use the enviroment, the climate around you as an excuse. So when you say "I cannot help that" I can't really agree with you. I've grown up in the same society and seeing all the racism around me has only made me more anti-racist. I'm sorry that it affected you this way. I've always thought we humans are meant to face a certain amount of ugliness and evil so that we will feel very strongly against it. So it's sad that the racism around you almost made you racist, well, at least made you feel weird about black people. I think we're facing unpleasent things to learn to "hate" those things. But I think it's good and necessary that you are trying to get rid of your unfortunate, inherent prejudice.

I also think you have to understand that people will react when you have feelings like that. Don't you think black people, people of other "races" who read your post felt hurt? Anyway, I'm sorry if I was a bit hard on you, but I really think that it's stupid to feel the way you feel. I don't think you are stupid, I don't think you are a bad person, I think you're a really nice and kind and smart guy, but I think that "statement", those feelings are stupid. I expected you to say something against p2c, I didn't expect you to more or less agree with him, you know. So I reacted strongly because I felt "let down". Seeing as you're an old communist with his heart in the right place, I thought your feelings on this would be very different.

Emil: As I said, it makes me sad that I cannot act naturally towards a person of different ethnicity. I am working on it and I think I'm improving every day - after all I work at a place where I meet people from all around the world (although most from the West). I am sorry that my first post sounded like I was condoning p2c.

It is probably true that any black person will be disturbed to hear that I have to think twice every time to convince myself that they are actually as smart as anyone else. It makes me disturbed as well! But I am being conscious about it and trying to change it.

When I hear someone saying that "I do not treat women and men differently", "I do not treat Swedes and immigrants differently", I cannot help thinking that they might be deceiving themselves, and they ought to probe their inside, face their inherent prejudice AND THEN do something about it. That was my point.

Oh, and on second thought, I might go back to my previous post and erase a few curse words and insults - I was rather mad since I felt I was accused of being a racist when I in fact see myself as quite the opposite. (and still very much a member of the left party.)

eraserhead: [I'm a hothead]:

In reply to:

As I said, it makes me sad that I cannot act naturally towards a person of different ethnicity.


Well, I think many Swedes, many people all over the world are like this, but it's not racism, they're not racists, it has more to do with facing the unknown. When we face the unknown, we become uncertain of ourselves. We fear the unknown, and the unknown can be a man in a dress, or it can be a sickness, or whatever. We're all afraid of the unknown. Personally, I'm definitely not afraid of people of different "races" but I'm afraid of other unknowns, like Death.

In reply to:

...I am being conscious about it and trying to change it.


That's good. From reading your posts from the last couple of years, I can't imagine you being a racist or anything like that. As you probably know by now, I'm a hothead. :) I think that's something I need to work on. :) Anyway, I see your point clearer now. It takes a big man to admit he's wrong, and I think I was a little too aggressive maybe. It's just that I've never liked racist jokes. (I'm not talking about you here.) Racism should be taken seriously. And I think if one is continuing to use words like "nigger" or if one is making racist jokes, he or she is not part of the solution.

twister: [The In-Crowd]:

In reply to:

I have a great sense of humour.


Now that is funny.

In reply to:

I don't have "sacred cows" of my own. I never posted to the "Favourite TWers" thread.


That's not the same thing at all. Sedna, for instance, is one of my favourite posters (and I listed her as such) but that didn't stop me from telling her I thought she was completely wrong on the "thbdbh" discussion, and that saying "so sue me" should be a hangable offence (which it should).

In reply to:

twister and you have formed a nice little alliance which makes it hard for anyone to disagree with twister or you, seeing as you're the two toughest debaters around.


Bullshit. I'm starting to wonder if you actually believe the trash you spew or if this is your idea of the great sense of humour you claim to posess. WildWind and I do hold some common beliefs, (the 'thbdbh' phenomena, and the debate on the Sex And The City thread being the only two I can think of) the fact that we both choose to argue them doesn't mean we've formed any kind of alliance to argue on another's behalf. Is Teenage Wildlife so boring for you that you spend your days hatching your own conspiracy theories to liven things up in your own mind?

In reply to:

As I've said, most people are idiots.


I don't believe that. You really, utterly and truly believe that in instances like the 'Sex And The City' thread I was arguing against you more because I liked your opposition than out of a genuine disagreement? And that the masses are just as idiotic as your perception of me? And that you, and an elite few alone, are somehow better than that?

In reply to:

When was the last time you saw a member of the in-crowd criticize another member of the in-crowd?


Well, seen as there is no fucking in-crowd I'd have to say "never", but going by the best I can ascertain of your perception of this imaginary crowd, from my own experiences I'd pull up WildWind recently accosting me for what I've had to say about 96dbfreak, the numerous clashes I've had with power2charm (I believe it's "feckless tit" he's been known to refer to me as), the rather heated WildWind VS. Einar Perfect Day debate (by the way, WW, Einar was right, they completely destroyed the song). I believe WildWind's first post on this thread was very much against power2charm and what he was saying. What about Kirk, is he a member of your in-crowd? It's hard to tell given it's a figment of your imagination, but he seems to be a popular fellow and he denounced a thread of mine regarding girls losing their virginity with other girls as "a classic, shit twister thread" - and if Kirk isn't a member of the "in-crowd" then where were my legions of supporters I allegedly have rushing out to my defence? That's just off the top of my head, I'd probably be able to come up with more, but seen as the in-crowd is entirely a figment of your imagination, and that I indiscrimately say what I think about anyone without so much as even thinking whether they're a "sacred" fucking "cow" or not, it makes it kinda tricky.

In reply to:

re-read her post and then hopefully you'll realize that she's absolutely right and that power2charm's post and Emil's post are plain stupid.


I don't think anything p2c nor Emil said was stupid, regardless of what SnowChild may have to say to the contrary. I think it's brave to admit to your less-than-perfect qualities and risk losing the respect and admitation of others. I don't think either poster said anything even remotely hateful or racist, and if they did I imagine I would have lost a great deal of respect. p2c admitted to a line of thought that is natural, if not exactly universal - the first thing I notice about a black person is that they are black. This doesn't colour my perception of said person in any way, but upon sight my mind says "black person" instead of "person", likewise your mind may say "fat person, disabled person, blatantly homosexual person" or whatever the case may be. After having thought this I always mentally scold myself and say "no, why differentiate, a person is a person" but the first thing my mind identifies them by, generally speaking, is that they are black. It's the first thing I notice. It's kinda hard to miss. In the first year of college I would get pissed off when the Chinese students would hog all the computers - not because they were Chinese, and it certainly didn't extend to a hatred of the Chinest, but because they were hogging all the damn computers. And it feels uncomfortable sitting amongst people that are speaking a language I don't understand - and I appreciate that this must be what it's like for the foreigners living in England - but that doesn't make it any less uncomfortable when I'm the odd one out.

So no, I don't think power2charm or Emil said anything stupid - and that is not because of who they are, but simply because I don't believe they said anything stupid.

Rather than words comes the thought of high windows

Auntie Prism
(stardust savant)
02/21/11 12:44 PM
Re: I am a Racist (03/02) new [re: Auntie Prism] Reply to this post

WildWind: [From a "sacred cow" to a "dead fish." Lovely]: eraserhead, you have a bad habit of selectively responding to arguments as they suit you. As with the last debate we had, many of the things you've argued have already been answered in either my or twister's posts; I could just quote things I've already said to respond to you. In fact, I will, when I get there. I will italicise the quotations that are from my own post for convenience in figuring out who said what.

In reply to:

I am a minority of one. I have absolutely nothing in common with most Swedes.


The fact that you behave or believe differently does not make you a minority for the context of this discussion. Racism is about judgments on how you look or where you (originally) come from. It's about judging people on the basis of things they can't choose, and which probably have little influence on the way they behave or the things they believe (things which, by the way, people do choose). Out of curiosity, what is the percentage of minorities in Sweden anyway?

In reply to:

WildWind says she takes offense to SnowChild's post, but WW didn't say anything against power2charm nor Emil.


I said in my previous post:

In reply to:

I take offense to this, as I as well as Trash, FiGgU_, Tati_wl and EuropeanCanon all indicated that we disagreed with the expressed sentiment. Some were done with sarcasm, some were explicit.

As far as the tone, I can only speak for myself in explaining why I made the short post that I did rather than exploding in an angry ball of hell fire. It's because racism primarily makes me sad. My initial reaction was sadness, and the best way I knew to express it was by saying what I said. I also know power2charm well enough to know that an angry ball of hell fire will only egg him on.


To put it simply, I did speak out against p2c's post. It apparently wasn't to your satisfaction, but it's pretty arrogant of you to be the self-appointed judge of which disagreements are vehement enough. I explained why I did not post a more "angry" response. Keep in mind that it's also a very personal issue for me, as I can often be found conversing in public in Spanish with my family. Though one response to that might be to get more angry, another might be a desire to stay distant. That's mine, as I tend not to be a person who likes to post her personal details all over the board.

In regard to your "sacred cow" theory in specific reference to this thread, even if p2c were a "sacred cow" at one time, I submit that there's no reason he would be any longer. He hardly posts anymore, and most of the new users probably don't know even who he is.

Though I did speak out, possible reasons other than your sacred cow theory that one might not have responded to p2c include:

* Finding the post so offensive that it doesn't deserve response
* A desire to not keep those words at the top of the board
* A desire not to get involved in a discussion that will surely turn into a flame war
* A knowledge that angry responses often add fuel to p2c's fire.

Finally, I find your choice of "sacred cows" to single out curious. There are plenty of regular users that didn't respond to this post, yet you're not jumping down their throats. Are you just singling out the "sacred cows" with whom you disagree much of the time, that is, the ones that aren't your sacred cows? I'll get more into that in a minute.

In reply to:

When was the last time you saw a member of the in-crowd criticize another member of the in-crowd?


Since you've made it abundantly clear that you consider twister and me members of the "in crowd" that are beyond each other's reproach, I'll point you to this post, and this one, and another and one more, in which twister and I have disagreed with each other on issues of varying importance.

In reply to:

But WildWind and twister, why don't you turn your attention from me and instead turn your attention to Snowchild's post


I read it, eraserhead, and I agreed with it, except for her assertion that no one had challenged p2c. You did notice, I hope, that I didn't challenge anything she said other than that one point. I saw no further reason for comment, given that I agreed with her. I don't understand why you're trying to preach to the converted.

As far as "focusing my attention on you," I'm sorry, eraserhead, but you've brought this on yourself as citing me as an example of a behavior you apparently find reprehensible.

In reply to:

I never posted to the "Favourite TWers" thread. I don't make those kinds of lists. Last week I did mention a few names of people I like, and those people are all "one of a kind"


These two comments completely contradict each other. "I don't make those kinds of lists, but last week I did"? Huh? The fact that you try to justify it by saying that the people you listed are "different" just means that you have different sacred cow criteria, not that you don't have sacred cows of your own.

And for the record, I don't generally post to "Favorite TWer" threads either. In my entire history here I believe I've made one tongue-in-cheek post to extol the virtues of Dara, who had not yet been mentioned and certainly deserves a nod of his own; I made another post to mention Evan, who had not yet been mentioned and who is responsible for this board's existence; and I made one post to give a special nod to the people I've actually met in person, and I hope you can see the distinction between that and a "sacred cow."

In reply to:

I don't have "sacred cows" of my own.


OK, then why have you never disagreed with Adam, for example? And "because he always has good things to say" is not an acceptable response, because you have repeatedly asserted that people don't agree with "sacred cows" because they're right, but by virtue of the fact that they're "sacred cows." You've taken away my right to agree with someone on his or her own merits, and you've taken away anyone else's right to agree with me on my own merits. Given that Adam certainly meets the "sacred cow" criteria you've put forth, I think that if my times of agreement are up for scrutiny, yours should most certainly be also.

Note that I'm not trying to take anything away from Adam here, as I too believe he's a fine poster, I just think you should apply your presumptions to yourself as well as to everyone else.

In reply to:

So there's no possibility that these people actually agreed with what I had to say?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Possibly, but I doubt it. twister and you have formed a nice little alliance which makes it hard for anyone to disagree with twister or you, seeing as you're the two toughest debaters around.


This would be laughable if it weren't so offensive to my and twister's integrity. There are not words to describe how arrogant your presumption of my motives is. twister and I happen to have the same beliefs about a lot of things. If we had a friendship or an "alliance" as you call it, it would be because we happen to view many things the same way, not the other way around. And I say if because I talk to him off the board about as often as I talk to you.

It's not hard to disagree with us, though it may be hard to continually advance a disagreement because we usually advance a number of sane, rational arguments in defense of our position, whereas most people just knee-jerk react. I'd also suggest that if it's hard to disagree with us when we agree with each other it's because we're usually right (and of course we believe we're right when we're defending our positions or we wouldn't defend them). The fact that we're two "tough debaters" who share a number of opinions is hardly evidence of your belief that we've formed a conspiracy against everyone else.

As far as your doubting that people sometimes agree with me because they happen to agree with me, that is offensive to me personally, as if no one could ever possibly think my positions are tenable without the "sacred cow" factor.

Again, I've addressed this in my previous post, advancing a question that you've not yet answered:

In reply to:

These people weren't defending me, they were offering arguments in defense of my opinion, which I and apparently others believe is correct. For Heaven's sake, eraserhead, is every agreement with a well-known poster a result of their being a "sacred cow"? Or is it just every agreement with a well-known poster that doesn't agree with you?


In reply to:

[twister] You really think the masses, including myself, are incapable of independant thought and flock in when someone they like is disagreed with immediately to defend them? That just ain't true, eraserhead.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Well, as you can see, both Ruskie and PHOENIX (and I) disagree with you. Troughout history, the masses have shown that they are incapable of independant thought and flock in when someone they like is disagreed with immediately to defend them. That's the mob mentality.


In general, I would argue that coming to the defense of someone you like is friendship, not mob mentality. If someone calls my sister an abrasive weirdo, of course I am going to defend her. That is part of my role as someone close to her. And this response is assuming that I concede everything you've said about people constantly running to the defense of "sacred cows," which I certainly haven't.

The fact that I've pointed out that, for example, twister and I are not always in agreement proves that there is no "mob mentality" here. I disagreed with p2c in this post and I have disagreed with him before. And once again, I take offense that you believe that I am incapable of evaluating an argument on its own mertis, that my choices of arguments are driven solely by some construct that you've invented.

In reply to:

As I've said, most people are idiots. Of course, they're not idiots forever. It's up to them. You don't have to be a dead fish if you don't want to.


You seem to be suggesting that I am both an idiot and a "dead fish," whatever that means. I think that my history speaks for itself in this regard.

WildWind: [There in black and white]:

In reply to:

by the way, WW, Einar was right, they completely destroyed the song


Oh, you're so wrong! What it did was add a new dimension that allowed the listener to hear the song in a very new, very rich way. I just love that version. I think all of you that hate it are depriving yourselves.

And eraserhead, I think that the two posts twister and I have just made, which we were apparently composing simultaneously (his was new to me when I submitted mine), are further evidence of a lack of this so-called conspiracy. In addition to the fact that we're taking completely different approaches to this argument, he seems to be defending p2c's original post, which I most certainly am not.

ohramona: [Please pardon the interruption…]:

In reply to:

If someone calls my sister an abrasive weirdo, of course I am going to defend her.


Ah, but my sister is an abrasive weirdo!


...we now return you to the developing dissertations of WW, Twister, et al.

eraserhead:

In reply to:

[twister] ...And that you, and an elite few alone, are somehow better than that?


We are all on different spiritual levels. We shouldn't deny the fact that some people have reached a higher level of spirituality than other people. So many people don't even believe in the soul, they don't even think we have a soul. They're more interested in the stock market. Most people eat animals because they like the taste in their mouth. As long as the masses continue to kill each other and other beings on this earth, as long as they're more interested in gaining more power, getting bigger houses and more cars, I think they're idiots, more or less. All the men who treat their women like trash, they're not very good men. So many women have never been told how beautiful they are, they never get to hear anything nice. Just watch Ricki Lake and you get a pretty good picture of our situation on planet Earth today. While billions of people starve, the spoiled, white people in the West are busy harassing each other to death. I am definitely above that. So, yeah, some people are "better" than other people because you are your thoughts, basically; you are what you do. If your head is full of greed and hate, if you treat other people like dirt, then you're not a very good person. I'm not talking about twister or WW or anyone else here, I'm just saying that it's not wrong to admit that some people are more spiritually advanced than other people.

In reply to:

[WildWind] Out of curiosity, what is the percentage of minorities in Sweden anyway?


I don't know, but we sure have a lot of immigrants here and I welcome them all. It's good for them to come here because Sweden is a rich country in many ways and it's good for us Swedes to meet different cultures because I think the meaning of life is basically to learn. I'd like to see even more immigrants here, more people of different "races" and cultures. They say Swedish women are so pretty, yeah, maybe, but they're nothing like African, Turkish, Iranian, Italian, Brazilian, Yugoslavian (and so on) women. :)

In reply to:

Though I did speak out, possible reasons other than your sacred cow theory that one might not have responded to p2c include:

* Finding the post so offensive that it doesn't deserve response
* A desire to not keep those words at the top of the board
* A desire not to get involved in a discussion that will surely turn into a flame war
* A knowledge that angry responses often add fuel to p2c's fire.


Okay. Good points.

In reply to:

There are plenty of regular users that didn't respond to this post, yet you're not jumping down their throats. Are you just singling out the "sacred cows" with whom you disagree much of the time, that is, the ones that aren't your sacred cows?


No, I criticized the regular users/the big names who already had posted to this thread. I criticized you (WW), twister, Emil and dice. You had already posted to this thread, and I was dissapointed with your replies. I think you WW could have praised Snowchild's intelligent post instead of finding something wrong with it. So there was one statement in her post you disagreed with, and, according to what you're saying now, the rest of the post was really good, in your opinion. Why didn't you say so then? If you had expressed your support for Snowchild and her arguments more clearly, I wouldn't have criticized you. It just seems weird that p2c proudly can announce "I am a racist" without you getting upset, and then when Snowchild tears his silly post apart, and express concern for the fact that people don't react, you choose to criticize her. Even if you do disagree with one statement in her thread, couldn't you just have forgotten about that and instead concentrated on answering p2c?

Anyway, about the other regulars...
twister has said he agrees with p2c, and so does dice, so of course I'm critical of them. I can't really criticize Evan for not jumping in here. Adam is the moderator, which means he has to bite his tongue sometimes, I guess. Or maybe I'm wrong about that. But you can't really expect the moderator to choose sides in every debate.

In reply to:

I don't understand why you're trying to preach to the converted.


Okay, I believe you: you agree with Snowchild's post. That's fine. So I guess you're not an example of a regular who takes
sides with another regular (just because he/she is a regular) against someone who is not part of the in-crowd. But why does twister still agree with p2c, why does he neglect Snowchild's post? What do you think?

In reply to:

You've taken away my right to agree with someone on his or her own merits, and you've taken away anyone else's right to agree with me on my own merits.


I think I've said this before, but I can repeat it: I am not God. I'm just a 21 year old guy with a lot of thoughts.

In reply to:

OK, then why have you never disagreed with Adam, for example? And "because he always has good things to say" is not an acceptable response, because you have repeatedly asserted that people don't agree with "sacred cows" because they're right, but by virtue of the fact that they're "sacred cows."


A long time ago, I had a real disagreement with Dara. I admit that I was wrong, but the point here is that I had a disagreement with one of the most admired and well-liked TWers. At that time, he was one of my favourites, and he still is. Some months ago I had a disagreement with rubleem, it wasn't that serious, though he never replied to my last message, so maybe it was serious after all. :) Also, I remember that I had a heated discussion with Alice_Falls several months ago. Me and Kirk had a heated discussion about money and taxes last year. We strongly disagreed, and Kirk is, in my opinion, the most thought-provoking poster here. I think Marquis and I have very different views on drugs, so there's another disagreement. We've never really debated because in 90% of the cases that's meaningless. I don't remember if I've strongly disagreed with Adam or not. I don't think that's relevant. I've disagreed with many other posters who I respect and admire a lot. But they are not my sacred cows, because I can criticize them. I think I've disagreed with most of the big names on this board. Dara, rubleem, Alice, WildWind, twister, Einar, and Kirk are just some examples.

In reply to:

As far as your doubting that people sometimes agree with me because they happen to agree with me, that is offensive to me personally, as if no one could ever possibly think my positions are tenable without the "sacred cow" factor.


I don't doubt that people sometimes agree with you, but you're a woman of steel, a woman with great authority, and I think, a lot of the time, people do not dare to disagree with you. That can be a plus, but it can also be a minus. How many of Bowie's co-workers do you think have the guts to say anything against him? I think very few dare to say anything. They don't criticize him, which means all he hears is positive stuff. It's just the way it is. You should realize that it's the same thing everywhere.

In reply to:

I take offense that you believe that I am incapable of evaluating an argument on its own mertis, that my choices of arguments are driven solely by some construct that you've invented.


I don't think you're incapable of doing that, but I know how people work and behave. One of the most important things for us is to feel that we belong somewhere. People need to feel that they belong. So they make sure they belong. That's why we have gangs, Nazis, in-crowds, etc. Don't you have this need? If not, then good for you. Personally, I've never felt this need to belong. If it's the same for you, I think that's great. But I know that most people need to feel that they belong to this or that group. Are you one of those people who have this need? If you are, don't you think that, in order to stay in this particular group you've selected, you have to agree with the other members in this group? If you want to be a part of Teenage Wildlife, you can't tell the TW in-crowd to fuck off, can you? That's the problem with groups of all kinds, you can seldom follow your inner voice, you have to follow the law of the mob. There's no place for individuality. That's why I don't believe in groups or followings or organisations. Btw, there was once talk of a Teenage Wildlife Hall of Fame. If that had become a reality, I probably wouldn't be here today.

In reply to:

You seem to be suggesting that I am both an idiot and a "dead fish," whatever that means


No, no. Never said you're an idiot and never meant that. The "dead fish" refers to the quote above: "Only dead fish swim with the stream." Which means that the real individuals don't go with the flow. Only dead fish go with the flow. I was not talking about you, I was talking about everyone, myself included. It's not too late for anyone to choose to go his/her own way instead of going with the flow.

WildWind: [Two words: you're wrong]: I will assume from your lack of response that you've abandoned the idea of a twister/WildWind conspiracy. So the remaining two substantive issues I see in your disagreement with me are 1) The existence of "sacred cows"/a TW "in-crowd" and 2) Your perceptions of my responses in this thread as misdirected and inadequate. I will deal with these one at a time and attempt to be as simple as possible.

1) The existence of "sacred cows"/a TW "in-crowd

This is really quite simple. You say that you don't have sacred cows because in addition to your issues here with me and twister,

In reply to:

A long time ago, I had a real disagreement with Dara...Some months ago I had a disagreement with rubleem...Also, I remember that I had a heated discussion with Alice_Falls several months ago. Me and Kirk had a heated discussion about money and taxes last year...I think Marquis and I have very different views on drugs, so there's another disagreement.


Please consider the following examples that twister and I provided above:

In reply to:

[twister]WildWind recently accosting me for what I've had to say about 96dbfreak, the numerous clashes I've had with power2charm (I believe it's "feckless tit" he's been known to refer to me as), the rather heated WildWind VS. Einar Perfect Day debate (by the way, WW, Einar was right, they completely destroyed the song). I believe WildWind's first post on this thread was very much against power2charm and what he was saying...Kirk...denounced a thread of mine regarding girls losing their virginity with other girls as "a classic, shit twister thread"


In reply to:

[WildWind]I'll point you to this post, and this one, and another and one more, in which twister and I have disagreed with each other on issues of varying importance.


Additionally, Sysiyo, rubleem, and Koz had a heated debate about anti-semitism, and I told them that they were all wrong in ways. Dr. Evil and Sysiyo conflicted for quite some time. 96dbfreak has had heated arguments with Kirk, power2charm, and twister, and in the first case, SoulLoveChild quickly came to 96dbfreak's defense. twister and Tristan had it out for a while. I once had a nasty tiff with Monkeyboy. Anony-moosey once basically told Adam that he was full of shit. twister and I went through the ringer at the hands of many in the most recent THBDB debate. power2charm has had political conflict with Andyst and Dara. There was a recent disagreement between Ruskie, the ethereal dawn, and Silverstar. In fact, Ruskie takes the piss out of me all the time. Shall I go on?

Geez, with all the conflict around here, I'm wondering where is this "everyone" that always "jumps to the defense" of the "sacred cows." In fact, why don't you clarify who exactly this "in-crowd" is, so I can come up with some more specific examples.

Face it, eraserhead. Sacred cows don't exist. People agree or disagree with each other based on their own beliefs in the context of a particular discussion. People who are patting each other on the back one second might be at each other's throats the next, and it's because we all have our own thoughts and opinions and are capable of applying them in a specific context.

2) Your perceptions of my responses in this thread as misdirected and inadequate

You say

In reply to:

You had already posted to this thread, and I was dissapointed with your replies.


I've already replied

In reply to:

it's pretty arrogant of you to be the self-appointed judge of which disagreements are vehement enough.


I've also already explained twice why my response wasn't more vehement, and I'm not going to do so again. Frankly, I think it's quite presumptuous of you to criticise my response to an opinion that is a lot more relevant to me (being a minority in the US that frequently speaks a language other than English) than it is to you.

In reply to:

I think you WW could have praised Snowchild's intelligent post instead of finding something wrong with it.


Snowchild expressed anger at the fact that "no one has dared" to challenge power2charm's original post. What was wrong with me pointing out that I and several others already had?

Furthermore, you should know by now that I am not an "I agree" kind of poster. And the fact that I pointed out that I had already disagreed with power2charm should have been evidence enough that I agreed with SnowChild.

Finally, I do have to take issue with this:

In reply to:

"Only dead fish swim with the stream." Which means that the real individuals don't go with the flow. Only dead fish go with the flow.


That is, in a word, absurd. It's only real to be contrary? Ha! It's just as much herd-mentality to reject something solely because it's popular as it is to embrace it solely because it's popular. What's real is to form your own opinions and thoughts and stick with them (in the absence of compelling evidence or arguments that make you change your mind), whether they're popular or not. What's the point of swimming against the stream if your destination is in that direction?

That quotation does, however, reveal that you are more interested in being contrary than you are in considering logical, rational arguments on their own merits.

There are a lot of other nits I could pick in your post, but you're so wrong about the substantive issues that I really don't see the point

Ruskie: [Little invitro]:

In reply to:

I can't really criticize Evan for not jumping in here. Adam is the moderator, which means he has to bite his tongue sometimes, I guess.


I don't want to intrude on the conversation here, but this seemed a little out of place to me. Granted I haven't read everypost in this thread, I've seen nothing that would warent censorship or the locking of this thread. Of course discussing a topic such as racism will offend people, but I hardly think that means it shouldn't be allowed to take place. We should be glad we're part of a community were something such as racism can be discussed openly and maturely (by most anyhow).

EtherealFantasy: I have not read all the way through yet, but really in response to the thing about Chinese and their Chinatown's.. I , a very pale Norweigian-American girl drive two hours at least once a month to go shop and eat at the Chinatown here in Washington. When I am there shopping around, I see plenty of non asians doing exactly the same thing. Chinatown is not closed off to other races, actually if you really look into it, you will find that it is more an international district than a Chinese district. You will find Vietnamese, Korean, Japanese, Phillipino, and more. That is just naming the main races. However I do admit, I have driven through south Seattle once, that's the black Neighborhood, and everyone looked at me weird even in the car, then stopping for gas people had to come over to me, who was still in the vehicle and flip shit.. So there are some neighborhhood's around only open to one race. Anyway's my point., It's very common to go to a coffee shop and hear other languages when you live on the coastlines. That is where people immigrate to. If you want your Arian nation, go inland. There the only racial diversity you will find will be the segregation between Native American's and those Bastard white people that stole the land.- Try to remember, you are the descendant of an immigrant too, and your family never tried to learn the Native tongue.

SnowChild: [No Sacred Cows]:

In reply to:

I take offense to this, as I as well as Trash, FiGgU_, Tati_wl and EuropeanCanon all indicated that we disagreed with the expressed sentiment. Some were done with sarcasm, some were explicit.


Oh I see, taking disagreement means adding comments like "I think it's good that you admit that you have these thoughts and feelings" [Trash]; "It's silly" [FiGgU]; "I would really, really hate it if someone ... made some comment like 'God, I hate those loud Mexicans'" [Oh, I believe that is you] and my personal favourite: "Deportation and repatriation is the only answer." [EuropeanCanon]. Is this Oprah's bookclub is it? Instead of expressing passionate concern why don't we sit in a neat circle and express such feelings as "This post gives me the primary feeling of ... SADNESS. It stirs within me ... UNCERTAINTY. Ahhh, I believe I feel .... ANGER ....

Why do I get the feeling that all this 'disagreement' is merely disguised agreement when all is being offered are sympathetic analogies and charming advice? Why don't we go down to the nearest war crimes tribunal and hear some more stories of those on trial about now they expressed their 'disagreement'. I thought Power2Charm was being really disgusting and I told him. I believe in what I had to say. I said it. I upheld it. Since he was completely no-bars and saying what he felt, I believed I could be just as passionate. I didn't want to give a half-arse, watered down response. Why should I when Power2Charm can do it?

SnowChild: [Power2Harm]:

In reply to:

I do not mean 'Chinese' as the Japanese, Thai, Vietnamese, and even the Koreans and Phillipinos all look pretty spiffy yoked to a rickshaw, imho.


And I believe you'd look very spiffy too, yoked to a pony with a feather in your cap called macaroni.

In reply to:

If the rest of humanity were just like me there would be none of the social problems of today. Why? Because everybody would act identically, and all social discomfort would evaporate.


I believe you. And that world is called 'the space on the Teenage Wildlife Message Board' occupied by Power2Charm and his cliche, and obviously if not for the rest of us trying to express a contary opinion, you would all be very social comfortable right now sharing stories about how annoying people other than yourselves are.

In reply to:

Asians, on the other hand, haven't been persecuted to nearly the same degree (in the US, at least), and they haven't organized here to keep past persecutions an open wound. Therefore, it is easier to "share" about them.


I assume the 'about' is not accidently suppose to read 'with'. Oh go ahead then. Do share. You digust me, but an opinion is worth hearing. Let's talk about the Asians since none of them are here. Heavens, none of them, and other races, can be Bowie fans can they? Have you formulated a secret handshake yet?

In reply to:

I'm glad some people were disappointed, shocked, found them funny, agreed to similar feelings. The response should be varied.


And variety unfortunately, includes me.

WildWind: [Hmph. A SnowChild/eraserhead "alliance"]:
Oh this is just brill, SnowChild. So not only are you and eraserhead the self-appointed judges of what responses are vehement enough and the presumers of people's motives in responding or not responding, but you are now also telling me how to feel? Sorry, but no.

I am not going to explain again why I chose to post what I did. I am not going to repeat the scores of examples twister and I have posted of challenges to and among this supposed "in-crowd." And I am not going to re-list the perfectly valid reasons why someone might have chosen not to respond to power2charm.

You, SnowChild, are too presumptuous for words.

twister: [SnowChild wants a world where everyone is the same]:

In reply to:

[WildWind] In general, I would argue that coming to the defense of someone you like is friendship, not mob mentality. If someone calls my sister an abrasive weirdo, of course I am going to defend her. That is part of my role as someone close to her.


But even then you're still a million miles from eraserhead's "sacred cow" belief, in that if your sister were to be the one calling some other undeserving soul "an abrasive weirdo" I don't doubt you'd be just as likely to openly disagree with your sister. Of course, presumably one of the reasons you care about your sister is because she isn't the type to tell undeserving souls nasty things (presumably, of course). I'm sure I'm not saying anything you didn't already know, just building on your analogy.

In reply to:

[eraserhead] Just watch Ricki Lake and you get a pretty good picture of our situation on planet Earth today.


No, you don't. This is akin to saying "read America's most wanted criminals list, it proves everyone's a criminal".

In reply to:

[eraserhead] So there was one statement in her post you disagreed with, and, according to what you're saying now, the rest of the post was really good, in your opinion. Why didn't you say so then?


I don't think you're looking at this properly. Yes, WildWind criticised SnowChild's original post on one point - but the point that she was criticising was the statement that no-one had said anything anti-p2c. By criticising that statement she was asserting her anti-p2c post very clearly.

In reply to:

[eraserhead] But why does twister still agree with p2c, why does he neglect Snowchild's post? What do you think?


I think it's brave to stand up and say "I'm not perfect". Particularly knowing how people can react. Look at the grilling you gave Emil, and tell me it didn't take guts for him to admit his knee-jerk reactions. And I don't think power2charm said or did anything wrong. So he got pissed off with a couple of foreigners. If he had beat the shit out of them with a baseball bat, I wouldn't be defending him right now.

Another point, the last time power2charm created a thread, on the subject of Hugh Hefner, I disagreed with him.

Unless you actually have some basis to your arguments that most "in-crowders" are just going with the flow, accept how wrong you are.

In reply to:

[eraserhead] I think, a lot of the time, people do not dare to disagree with you.


Which is why WildWind has perhaps been labelled a "bitch" more than any other poster here?

In reply to:

[WildWind] Face it, eraserhead. Sacred cows don't exist. People agree or disagree with each other based on their own beliefs in the context of a particular discussion. People who are patting each other on the back one second might be at each other's throats the next, and it's because we all have our own thoughts and opinions and are capable of applying them in a specific context.

[...]

That is, in a word, absurd. It's only real to be contrary? Ha! It's just as much herd-mentality to reject something solely because it's popular as it is to embrace it solely because it's popular. What's real is to form your own opinions and thoughts and stick with them (in the absence of compelling evidence or arguments that make you change your mind), whether they're popular or not. What's the point of swimming against the stream if your destination is in that direction?

That quotation does, however, reveal that you are more interested in being contrary than you are in considering logical, rational arguments on their own merits.


Yeah. I second all that. Hopefully you won't assume I'm agreeing just because it's WildWind, seen as we've already provided examples of us disagreeing, and on this very thread we'd both posted pro- and anti- p2c posts respectively, before this "sacred cow" debate even began.

In reply to:

[SnowChild] Oh I see, taking disagreement means adding comments like "I think it's good that you admit that you have these thoughts and feelings" [Trash]; "It's silly" [FiGgU]; "I would really, really hate it if someone ... made some comment like 'God, I hate those loud Mexicans'" [Oh, I believe that is you] and my personal favourite: "Deportation and repatriation is the only answer." [EuropeanCanon].


Could this be the worst example of quoting people out of context I have ever seen? Trash's post did indeed say it was good to acknowledge these feelings - in the sense that it was the first step in educating one's self to be better. fiGgU_ described p2c's attitude as "silly", which I think is a perfectly fine criticism. If anything it belittles p2c far more than your fury. WildWind turned it around to show it to p2c from the POV of the people he was being annoyed by to show him his asshole nature, and I get the impression that you're simply too fucking stupid to understand what EuropeanCanon was saying. Read it again. Repeatedly. Word by word if necessary. You moron.

In reply to:

[SnowChild] Why do I get the feeling that all this 'disagreement' is merely disguised agreement when all is being offered are sympathetic analogies and charming advice?


Because you're a moron.

In reply to:

[SnowChild] And variety unfortunately, includes me.


Unfortunately? You're the one thinking everyone should be spewing venemous anti-p2c bile like yourself, the rest of us are happy for the variety that allows you to spew such bile while I merrily defend him and WildWind displays her own sadness and everyone does everything their own way.

Rather than words comes the thought of high windows

Auntie Prism
(stardust savant)
02/21/11 12:45 PM
Will I post another of this length? Probably not new [re: Auntie Prism] Reply to this post

power2charm: [Squall of Sacred Cow]:

In reply to:

You digust me, but an opinion is worth hearing. Let's talk about the Asians since none of them are here. Heavens, none of them, and other races, can be Bowie fans can they? Have you formulated a secret handshake yet?


Sweetheart, what are you on about? Have you never heard members/leaders of the black....ooh, I mean "African American," community discussing white ....damn, caucasions as if they weren't there to overhear? I sure have. I'm glad they do - I want to know what they think.

It's apparent to me, having reviewed your posts, that you don't have the slightest inkling what I am getting at with this thread. If you did, you wouldn't be "disgusted." Nor are you capable of getting a clue.

Why confuse the issue, you and eraserhead both, by insinuating that I have some influence here that prevents people from doing their own thinking? In fact, where is your criticism of your friend, eraserhead, who made the mildest most milquetoast post a racist could ask for in his first reply?

I don't doubt that some Asians would be offended by the rickshaw comment - it goes to prove that certain members of every race, creed and culture under God's blue sky have a sizable branch up their butts.

You know who the biggest racist on this thread has been? Eraserhead, that's who. In e-head's warped world, all foreigner's are light and life, and all established Swedes are relative nincompoops. Go back and read his posts - it's shocking - just mix the races up and pretend where he spoke ill of Swedes he was instead speaking of the newcomers - and you can be one hundred times more offended than by anything I've insinuated.

This thread confirms my suspicions - racism has us all in its grip, and not the least those who most vociferously decry it.

Put on your hoods, Snowchild and Eraserhead, and join the parade.

ziggywombat: [moo. as if, i was never sacred. ]: i think one of the most racist behaviours is walking about with a chip on your shoulder ready to jump all over anything you feel is a slur directed at you. everyone judges everyone all the time, it's the way the human mind works.

and it' not just a visible minority thing, i've a very mixed background, i've still gotten racist remarks directed at me. last year a bunch of indo-canadian boys in a couple of my classes never bothered to learn my name but called me "hey, white girl" whenever they wanted to borrow something. that's just one example.

don't act like you've never judged anyone, it simply isn't possible and it just make you look like a self righteous prick.

Arthur0Dent: I can't be the only one who immediately thought of Never Be Rude to an Arab.

eraserhead: [Nobody laughs anymore]:

In reply to:

You know who the biggest racist on this thread has been? Eraserhead, that's who. In e-head's warped world, all foreigner's are light and life, and all established Swedes are relative nincompoops. Go back and read his posts - it's shocking - just mix the races up and pretend where he spoke ill of Swedes he was instead speaking of the newcomers - and you can be one hundred times more offended than by anything I've insinuated.


power2charm, you can't turn everything I said around. You can't pretend that I spoke ill of the newcomers when I spoke ill of the Swedes. Turn everything someone says around, and Jesus Christ would be the Devil himself.

And yes, the foreigners I've met or known have been "light and life" as you put it. You can't change that fact. Most Swedes are spoiled, greedy, shallow people. You can't change that fact either. I think, in general, you'll find more assholes in rich Western countries (like the USA or Sweden) than you do in poorer countries like Somalia or Greece or Iran. I think people become assholes because they have problems, and problems are more likely to appear if you own a lot of things. The more cars, houses, money you own, the more you have to worry about, and being worried and troubled affects your psyche, and all the stress makes you a rude person, basically. In non-materialistic cultures, they don't judge a man by what he's got, they're more interested in the spiritual aspects of life, which is the only real life.

I went back and read my posts, and if what I have to say is "shocking" to you, then that says more about you than about me. In my first post I talked about how nice, friendly, warm and open the immigrants that I have met or known are. I also said that our Western lifestyle is doomed, that the capitalism, materialism, industrialism and competition we think so highly of will destroy our souls in the end. Am I a racist because I'm strongly opposed to Western "culture"? TS Eliot's The Waste Land and Kafka's The Trial and a bunch of other classics basically say the same thing. Are they racists? I also said that, in general, I find dark women more attractive and way more interesting than most Swedish women. Is that so shocking to hear?

power2charm: [I'd rather be a sacred cow than a snail, if I could, oh yes I would]:

In reply to:

power2charm, you can't turn everything I said around. You can't pretend that I spoke ill of the newcomers when I spoke ill of the Swedes.


I'm not doing that eraserhead. I made the comment about switching Swedes with newcomers to illustrate that racism isn't only racism when it flows from caucasion to dark skinned. What you are saying is a) just the flip side of what others have insinuated and b) MORE racist than anyone else because I don't see anybody else on this thread calling Arabs or Africans, as cultural groups, "assholes."

In reply to:

And yes, the foreigners I've met or known have been "light and life" as you put it. You can't change that fact. Most Swedes are spoiled, greedy, shallow people. You can't change that fact either. I think, in general, you'll find more assholes in rich Western countries (like the USA or Sweden) than you do in poorer countries like Somalia or Greece or Iran. I think people become assholes because they have problems, and problems are more likely to appear if you own a lot of things. The more cars, houses, money you own, the more you have to worry about, and being worried and troubled affects your psyche, and all the stress makes you a rude person, basically. In non-materialistic cultures, they don't judge a man by what he's got, they're more interested in the spiritual aspects of life, which is the only real life.


Well, this is a load of shit, imo, but you are welcome to your opinion. But if the difference between being spiritual and being an asshole is economic - then why discuss it in terms of people's race or nationality? Why discuss it as a RACIAL issue, as you have done? It suggests that you don't actually think of the issue in strict economic terms. Do Turks or Somalians who achieve the good life in Sweden then become spoiled assholes? Or do they magically retain their simple spirituality? If they retain it, how do they do so? By the magic of being dark-skinned?

In reply to:

Am I a racist because I'm strongly opposed to Western "culture"


Yes, I believe that if you ascribe to any given culture a lot bad attributes, and no good ones, and conclude by calling all members of that culture assholes, you've got a problem with cultural racism.

In reply to:

I also said that, in general, I find dark women more attractive and way more interesting than most Swedish women. Is that so shocking to hear?


No more shocking than twister stating he finds caucasion women more attactrive than dark-skinned women. Now, tell me, eraserhead, since that is the only thing twister said on the thread (besides the whole bit about sacred cows, which isn't relevant), and since his opinion is merely the flip-side of yours on the subject of beautiful women, you must concede he is no more or less racist than you, right?

eraserhead: [500 years of genocide]:

In reply to:

I made the comment about switching Swedes with newcomers to illustrate that racism isn't only racism when it flows from caucasion to dark skinned.


It's ignorant and stupid to label black people's anger towards white people as racism. Think about how black people have been treated politically, legally, and socially within your history in the United States of AmeriKKKa. Black people were slaves in your country for 500 years. 500 years of slavery and institutionalized racism... 500 years of genocide.

Chuck D says black people can't be racists. To be racist you have to be in a position of supreme power and control. You have to have the ability to make great decisions based solely around race. White people own everything and have total control, therefore only they can be racist due to the word's definition. But according to you, when someone calls the white man an asshole for being responsible for 500 years of genocide, he or she is a "racist"?

In reply to:

Do Turks or Somalians who achieve the good life in Sweden then become spoiled assholes?


Yes and no. It depends. If you're not that strong, there's a big chance you get poisoned by the Western "culture". This monster we've created is always hungry, so you never know. I think it is capable of taking over the most innocent, good-hearted souls. This so called "technological progress" of ours is nothing but a slow suicide, as I see it. And I'm not the only one to have this opinion. Even in America, there are some people who recognize this, for example the Green Party.

In reply to:

I believe that if you ascribe to any given culture a lot bad attributes, and no good ones, and conclude by calling all members of that culture assholes, you've got a problem with cultural racism.


I didn't say all people in the West are assholes, I said the majority of people are. I know several really good people. My mother is one of them. She's practically a saint, so of course there are exceptions. But according to your point of view, Eliot, Kafka and Beckett were all racists because their works are very critical of the Western waste land. All Marxists are racists, all communists are racists. Iggy Pop is a racist. Lou Reed is a racist. And so on. Because all these people have openly stated that they are fed up with this sick society. They're all strongly opposed to the Western "culture" where money is God. If you want to call these people racists, then fine, go ahead.

twister: [Keepin' The White Man Down!]:

In reply to:

But according to you, when someone calls the white man an asshole for being responsible for 500 years of genocide, he or she is a "racist"?


Absolutely. I am a white man. I, personally, am not responsible for 500 years of genocide. If someone holds that genocide against me, and thinks I'm an asshole because I'm white like those that were behind said genocide - when my being white is something I never had any choice about - yes, I'd say that's racist as hell.

Wraith2: Okay, let me try my hand at this whole issue. People are basically the same. Yes, we do have differences at the genetic level and our personalities are influenced by our ethnic groups. However, if you can't deal with that, then get the fuck off this planet because whether or not you like it, we are one species.

The scariest people are not the dumbasses like Shambuei who sit around in their trailers, masturbating in their own feces and saying 'it's time fer all the niggers to die,' it's the people who try to give some legitimacy to their racist beliefs. Those who try and pervert science and religion to justify their own sickness. They would have you think that they are proponents of "racial pride," but racial pride doesn't involve hating other races.

There are three types of racists: those that fear, those that hate and those that do both. The first kind will look at someone different and be afraid because of what they do not understand. They see only the superficial differences between themselves and others and are frightened by the idea that someone could exist outside the orthodoxy of their own society. The second kind are so mired in self-hatred, that they need something, anything, to turn against. They have so much hate that if they were to direct it inward, then they would kill themselves. Thus, they need a scapegoat, and (going back to type I racists) they pick a group of people that they don't understand because they can easily distance themselves from that group.

Power2charm, I think your core problem is that you aren't trying to accept others. You are a type I racist: you look at the faces of others, see something different and are afraid. I don't know why you feel this way, that is something that you must find for yourself, but if you continue down this path, then you will probably never come back. Eventually, you will become a type II, consumed with hate, and that's not something anyone should want to be. I understand your point about wanting to be around your own kind, but you have to understand this: people are your own kind. Even if they don't look like you, even if they don't act like you, we are one species that grows more and more alike every day. (And for the record, the Chinese have their Chinatowns because racists wouldn't let them build near the homes of white people.)

The Heirophant (Anonymous): [Intrinsic racism]: Another thread wherein eraserhead attacks the sacred cows. Two things should be made clear to the protagonists in this irrational debate: firstly (for eraserhead), posters only post what they believe are objective and rational posts, and secondly (for the cows), that it is not possible for posters to separate their personal attitudes towards others from their opinions. One is less likely to argue with a 'friend' than a neutral poster, and more likely to argue with a 'foe' or 'nemesis'. Consciously or not. Objective posting is impossible, but I will leave you to decide whether or not an unconscious preference is rational.

Modern racism is a term which some posters here have attempted to use, but with very little understanding of it's meaning. Historically, racism is some negative feeling towards or opinions of another race. Yet modern racism is far more widespread and far less obtrusive. Professor Appiah's (Harvard) intrinsic racism, one of the best definitions of modern racism, is determined as the "moral differentiation between members of different races [due to the belief that] each race has a different moral status... Just as .. many people assume that the fact that they are biologically related to another person - a brother, an aunt, a cousin - gives them a moral interest in that person, so an intrinsic racist holds that the bare fact of being of the same race is a reason for preferring one person to another." (Racisms, 1990 - Kwame Anthony Appiah). Professor Appiah is one of the world's foremost writers on racism, and according to his views any preference based on race is a form of racism. There is no requisite for action or behaviour on the part of the individual - the preference itself is sufficient.

Many modern Kantian ethicists will argue that any behaviour that is not pro-racial diversity is a form of modern racism. This goes further than the 'preference is racism' viewpoint, in that anyone who doesn't explicitly prefer to be in the company of a mixture of races is a racist. Racial theorists who support these seeming extreme arguments are not uncommon, yet the general academic community does consider them to be slightly radical. In any case, diversity is usually regarded as something to be valued.

Power2charm's post should be given merit for bringing up educational discussion, and should be criticised for endorsing rather than denying racist tendencies. Informally, I am not a believer in the 'ignore it and it shall go away' school of thought, and subsequently I have no problem with the initial post at all. However it is undeniably (and self-admittedly) racist in nature.

PostModernRacist (Anonymous): [I am a Racist, therefore I am not a Racist]: The topic of racism in the post-modern world is both broad and difficult. Since short and sappy seem to be the order of the day here lately, I will simply tell you all a true story about yours truly.

I was at the gym on a Friday night about a month ago. I didn't arrive there in a bad mood - wasn't feeling any particular mood, really. But I walked up the stairs to the main floor of the gym and the first thing I see is this Black guy on one of the good treadmills. He has the treadmill ramped up on an incline and he's running - shuffling - on it with a dead, tired look in his eyes, his black hair dripping with sweat.

I looked at him and thought spontaneously to myself, why do all Blacks look like they should be carrying spears when they run?

During the same evening I was in another area of the gym where there are free weights and barbells, and these two German guys were loudly conversing in their native tongue while "lifting," and it annoyed me. Partly because it was loud, and if the language were English I probably still would have found it grating. But partly, I admit, was the fact that I didn't come to my gym on a cold, wet Friday night to have a couple of Germans aka-laka-lakaling at me. (I must give credit for "aka-lakaling" - a dear friend from a former job once said she didn't fancy vacations to foreign lands where the natives would be aka-laka-lakaling at her, which struck me as funny).

Post-Modern racism is a curious thing. Racism in the Modern sense is dead, it is the province of lunatics. The racism I believe that I exhibit is something different. It is a desire for comfort. For familiar words and thoughts, for some homogeneity among all the diversity.

Here in the Northeast, there is more cultural diversity than in other areas of the United States. When I go to a coffee shop on a late Sunday afternoon, I know for a fact I will hear languages other than English spoken. I'm ok with that. But if the Italians have their Little Italy's, then am I wrong to build ideallic White-Americanavilles in my mind? Are the people of Greenwich or Westport or New Canaan, Connecticut, wrong to build them in fact?

Yes, post-modern racism is a curious thing. I'm not convinced it is wrong.

SnowChild: [I am Not a Racist/An Apology]: Okay, I put my hands up, I have been a lot more abrasive in my comments than I should have been. And this earns me no medals, because I know that as soon as anger is generated over my anger, hatred is an ends in itself and hatred against me needs no justification.

I don't think it's fair that a post gets dedicated to me accusing me of wanting everyone else to be the same. What I want is a wish that more people would say things a little more louder and more bravely (like my idiocity, if be it), that is different from a wish like power2charm who wants a world where everyone is like him.

You have to admit that everything here consists of double standards and everyone can be accused of the same. You say that I quote badly out of context, twister, but then you're committing a similar crime when your argument for why one of my opinions is supposedly wrong is because I'm 'a moron'. I have never sunk as low as labelling people with hurtful names on the basis of disagreeing with their personality. Do you think this may be a form of neo-hatred power2charm alludes to? Or perhaps you yourself do not know what I am trying to say? I am not stupid, I understood well what everyone was trying to say. What I myself was trying to say is that I felt that the answers were so timid and so open to being disguised agreements (when others were insisting they were straight forward disagreements) that I didn't agree they were disagreements at all. I was mocking them with that out of context juxtaposition (it's unkind, it's bad, but it does sound stupid). My thesis supervisor would have made me write lines and repent till I bled. Sorry you didn't find it as funny as EuropeanCannon post.

Look, what are we trying to achieve here in the end and what have we achieved? Power2charm purposely put up a provocative post and he expected to get trashed. He would have been disppointed, I suspect, if he didn't. A debate in the true sense would include middleground and extremist attitudes. Some people had to provide the extremist attitudes. What would have happened if that didn't happen? A few small comments and then a topic that completely sinks, with the net result being no real struggle against a deadly serious topic - racism. And nobody gets their dirty good fight. Anyone could have taken any roles at any point, on any side, since it was such an absurb, somewhat playful half-humourous post filled with horrid comments … if it wasn't so hurtful. What is reality is that people end up filling vacant positions and assigning roles to themselves, while inevitably ending up within forced roles. Look at you: in order to slam me, you defend FiGgu, regardless of what you think of him. I don’t think his original post interested you much at all. Look at everyone here with their nicks and little cyber personalities (everyone is a little Bowie).

What would this world be if nobody bothered to say "This upsets me, I think it is wrong and I would like to have a strong say? I want to follow reason. I also want to fucking scream" That would be quite a sad, passive world. The fact is: the level of intelligent thought would not have gotten this far if nobody was prepared to provoke another into it.

I apologise for not being a lot of fun. I cannot apologise for my opinions. This is something I believe strongly in. I apologise for being a bad sport. My conduct wasn’t the best. An Australian is always a good sport and I shame Adam and all the rest of the little vegemites who generally, are the upholders of everything good and fair there is here. In my opinion, with regards to racism and nationalism, it is much more constructive to point out what is good and live by a process of affirmation than to wallow in deduction, which cannot achieve anything but to narrow-in your narrow-mindedness until you believe you have come to something personally right. So graciously, now I hope this debate is on it's way to it's death and everyone can resume their level headed positions, thank you for the interesting debate, look, it’s a lot better than Labyrinth-fan baiting eh?

SnowChild: [Friendship VS Allaince]: In response to the title of your post: Yes, I admit that Eraserhead is my friend. I respect him, I admire him, I enjoy his views. I admit that and I see nothing wrong with it. Friends are good. I am not going to pretend I don't know him like others may do with each other to prove a point. He would be thoroughly insulted. But this is different from an alliance. We never directly stand up for each other, jump to each other's defences or put words into each other's mouths. I let him fight his own battles on this board and he for me. On this thread alone he has more than once criticised me on my opinions and if he thinks I am wrong he says so because personal opinion is more important to him than sparing feelings. And that I think, is what Eraserhead upholds and stands for and for that I commend him. As for the challenges and motives, I will let Eraserhead speak for himself if he choose to, that's how it works.

I am not telling you how to feel. I am only telling you my motivations. Re-reading all the posts, I admit that I was overly venement, unfortunately it all fell on you and I am sorry because you were a lot more fair to my post than me to you. Actually, it was a lot more favourable than what I expected because I knew I was in a position for further venom and it came quite politely. I think I was just sick of the politeness. I wanted to attack the ideas, not the people personally - so I am honestly sorry if you got upset because I am sure you're a nice person in real life.

With the scared cow mentality - the thinking is that opinions and the actual people are seperate and are treated thus. It's to do with siding with opinions, not with people. In the end it should be a fight on the ideas - not about the people. When you side with people you become bias and defend through intentional crowds and sadly, the choice to uphold ideas because you personally believe them take second place to sentiments.

SnowChild: [After All?]: Hrmph. From the ill-conceived racial title you have chosen, I think you're the one with no idea. From my humble opinion I think I KNOW what you are getting on about. You are calling yourself a new brand of Racist. Everyone here can see that. And if your comments about the 'homogenous' behaviour of certain races are not to be met with disgust by some, I don't know what you expected. Although it is fair and open for discussion, it is hurtful. You complain that you are being hurt when you are the one hurting others in the first place. You bred the hatred. And would there be any sense of justice at all, if you were allowed to, with no censorship at all, voice all you like and not have some people counter it?

You call yourself a Racist - as far as I am concerned, people getting offended and angry at you should make you feel more proud that you are suceeding in your aim. If no one dared to kick up a fuss - it would be like this. Person calls himself Racist. A few small disagreements. A few sarcastic jokes. Don't you see how serious it is about the nature of human kind if it sank after that? I would be dead scared. Regardless of the playful matter you framed the topic in, it would say apathy and no-stance and that is frightening. Give credit to the people on your polar end, they're doing their job as well.

Eraserhead is on a different tangent to me, you will see I have different things to say from him. If you want to know why you are being attacked and not Erasehead - it's because he never stated he was a Racist (you did). As far I can tell, Eraserhead is a pessimistic Nationalist, not a Racist. He groups his own countrymen into one big lump - he doesn't sort out seperate people to attack. I am not saying that this is right, I'm just saying I don't think he's a Racist as you insist.

In the end I guess this is saying, under all the fluff, that if someone wants to be a racist, let them be because under no circumstance can you think ill of them. I think the winner is ... racism. You are the winner and I am the loser according to Twister who is the upholder of free speech here. Hmm. Yeah.

Personally, I am hurt because I think you assume I'm white and keep writing in that perspective. Do you even know what race I am?

twister: [SnowChild]:

In reply to:

I don't think it's fair that a post gets dedicated to me accusing me of wanting everyone else to be the same.


I do. You stated, very clearly, that you wished more people would take up the same stance as you. I don't believe anyone has objected to your expressing your sentiments exactly how you have, though you're quite happy to blast other's for not conforming to the acceptable standard you see fit.

In reply to:

You say that I quote badly out of context, twister, but then you're committing a similar crime when your argument for why one of my opinions is supposedly wrong is because I'm 'a moron'.


That's not even remotely similar. I answered one of your questions in a way that was negative of you. Offering my opinion, which is negative of you. You took EuropeanCanon's words, a sarcastic take on the idiocy of racism, and twisted them to make it look as if he himself advocated racism.

In reply to:

I have never sunk as low as labelling people with hurtful names on the basis of disagreeing with their personality.


I think WildWind, to use her as an example, has suitably explained repeatedly why her response is exactly as it is. When you accuse her of offering "disguised agreement", I think you're a moron. You may think I'm a moron for thinking as such, and you're welcome to say so.

In reply to:

Or perhaps you yourself do not know what I am trying to say?


If I believed power2charm actually had an ounce of genuine racism in his blood, that he would allow his minor grievances with the "akka-lakking" to influence his opinion of another human being, I'd be writing a very different post right now. If I believe power2charm actually wanted a world full of people of his own race, I'd be writing a very different post right now. But I don't believe he is, by any stretch. I'd actually thought WildWind and fiGgU_ had over-reacted, long before you showed up and chastised everyone for not disagreeing vehemently enough.

In reply to:

Look at you: in order to slam me, you defend FiGgu, regardless of what you think of him. I don’t think his original post interested you much at all.


Very little in this thread interested me. I defended fiGgU_'s post because I thought you were being ludicrous and disagreed with you.

In reply to:

What would this world be if nobody bothered to say "This upsets me, I think it is wrong and I would like to have a strong say?


The thing is, everyone has been quite happy for you to express yourself in your screaming and shouting way. The only problem has been you want everyone else to adopt the same attitude - so much so that you're chastising others for not being harsh enough even if they're agreeing with your sentiments.

Kirk: [Git]: You're not as smart as you think you are, twister. Get over yourself.

twister: [So I'm, like, 2? 3?]:

In reply to:

You're not as smart as you think you are, twister. Get over yourself.


Kirk, on a scale of 1 to 10, in terms of intelligence, I consider myself roughly a 4.

Paris: [I'm alive/I'm dead/I'm a stranger/Killing an arab]:

In reply to:

everyone judges everyone all the time, it's the way the human mind works


Exactly, I had a post like this that I was about to enter, but I couldn't phrase it with political correctness. Truth is, all racism is is blind sterotypes. The kinds we have with cops, blondes, lawyers. If somebody has something on you, fuck 'em.

sexy grandpa: [Listen to this…]: I am currently a music student at college, were last November, I was approached by a good friend informing me I had an admirer. I really am quite a shy person and so waited to be approached by the girl. She's prity, she's a fan of Beck ,and so am I, and she like's me.Oh, she's Musilm too.
I thought nothing of this and within two weeks we were getting sort of close. Then, to cut an extreamly long story short, a car approached me, the two Asian guys tried to get me in but luckly enough I was with other people. So they have threatened to kill me and follow me reguarly.
I'm not rasist. After all, why should I be?....

abe11825: [Er…]: Excuse me for interrupting everyone's posting. I am sorry. You all have good reasons and I agree with a couple, but I just want to point out that every race does their own "aka-laka" no matter if it is English, Swedish, Japanese, Zimbabwe, etc. To every race, it's different. So going back to the original post—

In reply to:

(p2c)...and these two African guys were loudly conversing in their native tongue while "lifting," and it annoyed me. Partly because it was loud, and if the language were English I probably still would have found it grating. But partly, I admit, was the fact that I didn't come to my gym on a cold, wet Friday night to have a couple of Zimbabwes aka-laka-lakaling at me. (I must give credit for "aka-lakaling" - a dear friend from a former job once said she didn't fancy vacations to foreign lands where the natives would be aka-laka-lakaling at her, which struck me as funny). ...


How do you know thy don't get annoyed when you talk English? They might have the same feelings towards you when you do it. Just shrug it off and don't let it get the best of you. That is all.

For me, I am Jewish. I loathe my religion. I hate it, but it is to the point that I do not care. People know Jews for being rascist little money grubbers. Who is to say they are not? It could be you that is the money grubber. Rascist? maybe. I don't know. out of the Jews I know (and i know a lot of Jews) They are not rascist. Sure, they like to save their money and spend a little more on something, but who doesn't do that once in a while?

Go ahead, tear my post to shreads. I don't care. Just remember, I tried to have a say in it.

Ruskie: [What's the difference]: http://www.alllooksame.com

I only got 6, i guess some of you would think that enough to make me a racist?

sedna: i only got 6 too

abe11825: I got a 5. I should know better considering my room mate is Japanese!!

twister: [Ring Jewish weather; warn them of the holocaust]: I was at an all-Jew school walking up to children saying "gas, gas, gas", when I suddenly remembered this thread.

It amuses me that the two people here arguing the most heatedly against power2charm's original post are themselves opposed to diversity in their own ways.

Eraserhead, you believe yourself to be on a "higher level of spirituality" than most people. You have been known to preach on other threads that people should become more like you. You denounce meat-eaters as idiots and Americans (sorry, the majority of Americans) as assholes.

SnowChild, while you are far less guilty of this than Eraserhead, you can't deny that you lamented the posters on this thread for not sharing the same view point as you. In fact, you went so far as to lament them for not holding it and expressing is as strongly as you did. You too openly wished that people could be more like you on this thread.

eraserhead: [Shakespeare was right]: Twister, if you don't stand up for something, you'll fall for anything. Why should I pretend that Silvio Berlusconi is on the same spiritual level as I am? Jesus said that we shouldn't judge one another, but what did Jesus and his followers do? They travelled around the country judging everyone, judging and judging and judging. You can see the irony in that. I don't think Jesus was wrong to judge people though. Even if it's ironic that Jesus first told people not to judge each other and then he and his followers went out to judge people, he did what he had to do.

We all have certain roles to play. Sure, this is just a message board, but nevertheless real people read these messages and real people post here, so I think this place is as good as a bar or whatever to express opinions. It's my job to criticize meat-eating and criticize the American lifestyle, for example. It's your job to call me a fascist. I make you think, you make me think, people who read this get to see both sides, and possibly a third side, if someone else has another point of view. I believe that, as long as I'm true to my intuition and my gut feeling about things, I'm doing the job I'm supposed to do, I'm saying the things I'm supposed to say. I'm adding balance to this message board. Just like everyone else is adding something. That's all I have to say about this. Shakespeare said that the whole world is a stage and we are merely actors on that stage. You're doing your job, I'm doing my job.

Cisite: [Using Your Race]: I am not racist in any respect but would like to point out something that happened to me recently. I am presently going out with a girl in my year called Leah, one of her friends is called Kirsty a quite loud and pushy black girl. For some reason known only to hr she suddenly becamse intent on splitting Leah and I up. She was (luckily) unsuccesful and the lies and things she had said were uncovered. I then confronted her and told her exactly what i though of her. The words "scheming", "lying", "two faced" and "bitch" featured lagrely in my discussion but I did not once make a comment relating to race or the colour of her skin. The next day I was brought up before the headmaster on accusations of being racist. Her mentality is that if someone of another colour insults them (even i it has nothing to do with racism) then they are being racist against her because she is black. Has anyone else encountered people with similar attitudes?

power2charm: [Chuck D's Mo' Better Dictionary. Word!]:

In reply to:

It's ignorant and stupid to label black people's anger towards white people as racism. Think about how black people have been treated politically, legally, and socially within your history in the United States of AmeriKKKa. Black people were slaves in your country for 500 years. 500 years of slavery and institutionalized racism... 500 years of genocide.

Chuck D says black people can't be racists. To be racist you have to be in a position of supreme power and control. You have to have the ability to make great decisions based solely around race. White people own everything and have total control, therefore only they can be racist due to the word's definition. But according to you, when someone calls the white man an asshole for being responsible for 500 years of genocide, he or she is a "racist"?


I wanted to get back to this, but I've had some ISP problems this past week. First, when Chuck D finishes the rest of his dictionary, maybe his peculiar definition of racism will persuade me a little bit more than it does. It is completely arbitrary - and probably apologist of his own race's racist tendencies - to say only the race in power can be called racist. How do you account for the anti-discrimination legislation - one might call it "institutionalization" - that has been force since the 60s and is enforced? I would say minorities have succeeded in making America, institutionally speaking, a nation of equality, which is a fine thing.

So you will argue that in our hearts and minds, we do not think of other races as we do our own? I would agree, and here is where Chuck's definition rings false. Bigotry is really a matter of people's visceral response those of different cultures or races. It doesn't matter whether it is a white man's fear of or discomfort with Africans, or vice versa.

Second, don't throw the word genocide around so loosely. It does not describe the treatment of blacks in the US at any point in our history.

Rather than words comes the thought of high windows


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