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ziggfriedModerator
(acolyte)
02/23/11 08:53 AM
Morrissey: DB only relevant by accident (03/2004) new [re: ] Reply to this post

tonyinsf: Agree or disagree?

Smiths Legend Morrissey Speaks With GQ About a Reunion, Getting Older and Why David Bowie Is No Longer Glamorous
Monday March 15, 12:04 pm ET

NEW YORK, March 15 /PRNewswire/
-- In the April edition of GQ, editor-in-chief Jim Nelson was granted a rare opportunity to visit with Smith's legend, Morrissey, at his home in Los Angeles, to talk about the release of his first solo album in seven year and his former band, the Smiths:

* On the formation of the Smiths: "I had absolutely nothing else. And it was also a calling, because it instantly became successful, and it didn't require a great deal of effort. Preparation, yes, but not the effort."
* On the break-up of the Smiths: "It is commitment, because for me it was a huge emotional investment, and then Johnny [Marr] simply said 'It's over.' And I don't think he understood the investment that I had made in it.
* On the re-formation of the Smiths: "I get tired of being asked about re-formations, because there's really only one way to answer on a given question, and I feel I gave the answer 112 years ago, but people still ask me, and I can't understand why."
* On getting older: "I absolutely love it. The older I get, the better I feel. I'm fascinated by people in their eighties and nineties. Especially those who are still creating and living in an interesting way.
* On David Bowie: "(He is) not the person he was. He is no longer David Bowie at all. Now he gives people what he thinks will make them happy, and they're yawning their heads off. And by doing that, he is not relevant. He was only relevant by accident."


Jim Nelson's piece, Morrissey Returns! is in the April issue of GQ on newsstands nationwide on Tuesday, March 23, 2004. GQ is the leading men's general-interest magazine and part of the Conde Nast Publications, Inc.



RabbitFighter: Unfortunately he might be correct. I wouldn´t call Bowie´s latest works bad but maybe predictable and yawning at times. Now let´s see and wait how Morrissey's own effort turns out, my hopes are quite high...



zigbot: Harsh words! What's put a bee in Morrissey's bonnet?



Max_M: Reality was more definitely him giving "people what he thinks will make them happy", I'm hoping his next CD will be more daring.



jabow: How true. Reality is the most boring bowie album i have heard in a long time. Reality tour is full of over played hits that most fans don't care if they ever hear them again.
This could all change if david does do something more experimental on the next album.



martyn: The sad thing is that Morrissey seems to think he is or ever was relevant himself.
miserable twat.



Frank_Solo: I absolutely agree. Bowie was a ground breaking phenomena in the 70's. After the 80's went how they went, he's never been anything but a shadow of the 70's. The only thing that makes the new stuff worth listening too is that it refers to the old stuff in a way: The voice is quite the same, the melodies does some classic turns, and the lyrics are basicly about the same old themes.

If I hadn't heard the old stuff first, I don't think I would have liked him.



bulletprooffaces: on the bowie part, i strongly agree with everything until the "relevent by accident" part. he was relevent because he was relevent (in the 70s). since then, he's been tired and washed up and resting on his laurels. he is no longer david bowie, hasn't been for well over twenty years now. i am definitely yawning my head off at 'reality.'



SugarPlumFairy:

In reply to:

miserable twat.


That's just the point. He's always been gloriously brilliant at being miserable.

And he's a smart one, too.

Martyn, it's not as if Bowie's relevance and Morrissey's relevance can be compared. Don't be such a supporter of unified mainstream culture theory.



tonyinsf: I don't care what field you are in - you're likely to achieve greatness by your early twenties. In programming, you are considered 'over the hill' by age 25. Einstein got his nobel prize from work he did at age 24.

Bowie is great now because his work has far more substance than many of his peers, many of whom are half his age. But to judge Bowie by the younger Bowie, is unfair and (I think) ridiculous.



pablopicasso: Compare Bowie now and the likes of McCartney, Jagger, Clapton, or any from this time, which still can come up with something different. Reality maybe, to a degree, treading water, but the above have done that for twenty years.



Soulman: Bowie might not be a groundbreaker at the moment but I don't think he was(or is, however you see it) relevant by accident.



Beltene: Who the fuck is Morrissey?

A psychofag.



HopFrog: I think Mozza is pissed off at Bowie for something. Did our Dave offend him with his cover on BTWN?



pablopicasso: Well two years later they toured together, so I doubt it. Morrisey is just reonowned for being a misery. And he hasn't done anything relevent since he split up the Smiths.



tonyinsf: Everything Morrissey said was right on the mark, if he was referring to Bowie's worst album "TONIGHT", which happen to contain a cover of a Morrissey song.
Coincidence?



SugarPlumFairy:

In reply to:

"TONIGHT", which happen to contain a cover of a Morrissey song.


What the HELL are you talking about? There most definitely is no Morrissey cover on Tonight.



Strawman:

In reply to:

if he was referring to Bowie's worst album "TONIGHT", which happens to contain a cover of a Morrissey song.


Which song is that then?



tonyinsf: My mistake!

I got mixed up with Black Tie White Noise, which is a fairly good album. Sorry!

That said, the cover sure does sound like it *belongs* on TONIGHT.



Strawman: Simultaneous posting... [re: SugarPlumFairy]

I knew you had a crush on me. Looky at you on top.



Earthling7: Spot on, I'm afraid. Bowie was groundbreaking in the 70s and then briefly in the mid-90s. He is currently just being a "elder statesman of rock" as someone of his stature is supposed to be.

And on McCartney, Elton etc. I may want to agree that Bowie is way better, fitter, more relevant, but I'm sure Macca fans will disagree. A Macca fan might point out that he has fiddled with classical music (and Bowie not), that he actually released a good album a couple of years ago (Bowie debateable) and that he put on a bloody good tour. It's all a matter of taste anyway.



CAwesome: Remember when you were relevant, Morrisey? Twat.

NEXT!

(sorry, I've always wanted to do that.)



kipt: Well I disagree he was relevant "by accident" but I don't know about the rest. I actually personally think Heathen was pretty different from what you'd expect the fans to "want". I mean Sunday, Heathen, A Better Future (though most will disagree with that one), I would Be Your Slave, all to me seem to be at least a bit of a step somewhere else.
On the other hand, IMO Reality is a bit more of what Morrisey describes (don't get me wrong, I do like it). To me though it seems like just a bit of a momentary thing, I wou'dn't say that it's the mean of what Bowie's been doing recently.



Sysiyo:

In reply to:

Well two years later they toured together, so I doubt it.


But they quarreled during the tour pretty badly, and haven't been in terms since.



pablopicasso: Oh right, what about?



Sysiyo: Frankly, I don't remember. Morrissey later blamed Bowie for being to calculating, and there was some fighting about the setlists, I think.



zigbot: I agree that Reality is not "groundbreaking," but it is good, and better than a whole lot of what musicians have Bowie's age are littering the record stores with these days.

I agree with you, kipt, that Heathen was not a "give the fans what they want" album. Did David's fans WANT an album of songs about David's unfulfilled God searches? Probably not. But when they got it, did they like it? For the most part, yes. I adore Heathen, but I don't think it is completely "mainstream" and very commercial (with the exception of "Everyone Says Hi,"--which sounds accessible and poppy on the surface, but deals with darker issues--you'd think someone like freakin' Morrissey would actually appreciate that!).

Anyway, in summation, Morrissey is indeed a twat. I only wish I could PM Morrissey with CAwesome's avatar of Bowie giving the finger. Extremely a propos that!



pablopicasso: Yeah Reality isn't groundbreaking, as you said though Zigbot, it is still good though.
I don't think any of his comtempories come close.
E.G. Bowie made this album as he knew it would tour well, and he needed to get a round the world tour out of his system again. Every Rolling Stones album these days is followed by a tour, so each of their albums are now just geared for that and to fit in with the classics. quite often the tour is followed by a live cd. At least Bowie does what he wants.and not just what is expeceted.



zigbot: Well said, pablo. Now if Bowie's next three albums were just variations on Reality, I'd start complaining too. But you are right that there is nothing wrong with occasionally writing an album that "tours well." Hmm . . . but even if Bowie did three more Realities, if he actually TOURED after each one, I'd have to eat crow in advance and admit up front that I don't think I'd be complaining.

But I don't think David will just do more of the same, as I'm fairly certain he still has some interesting experimentation left in him.



JonnyManic: he's just bitter that he's so fat [re: tonyinsf]

zzz...

The only reason Morrisey wasn't swinging from a light-fitting in the mid-eighties is because Johnny Marr was such a great songwriter.



Marquis: According to Pitchfork, Morissey's next album will be produced by the guy who produces Blink 182. Perhaps he and Bowie are having a contest as to who can become the worst washed up purveyor of Adult Contemporary swill.



Jubany: I love Mo. Or, better, I love the Smiths, but I think that, besides personal opinions about whether he is right or not, he's in the worst position to talk about Bowie in that way. I mean, I adore him. He's been part of one of the greatest songwriting partnerships of all times. But then he did nothing better or, at least, as good as that for the next fifteen years.
Anyway, I'm anxiously wainting for "You are the quarry"



Adam: He hates it when his friends become successful [re: JonnyManic]

It's pretty typical of Morrissey to behave like this.

The thing is - Morrissey's last two albums - Maladjusted and Southpaw Grammar - were not only irrelevant but they were just plain bad and I say that as a big fan of his solo work.

As someone else explained, Heathen and Reality are not the pinnacle of high art but they are solid albums. Moreover, they were released in the last three years whilst all the Moz has achieved in the last 7 is a big FUCK ALL!

The bottom line - Moz is jealous of Bowie's critical renaissance.

Needless to say, this is the man who wrote a song titled "We hate it when our friends become successful".....



Earthling on Fire:

In reply to:

Frankly, I don't remember. Morrissey later blamed Bowie for being to calculating, and there was some fighting about the setlists, I think.


As far as I remember, Bowie criticized Stephen for his "lack of professionalism", which is hardly a surprise coming from a performer who sang as best he could in the face of the flu a few months ago, to the world champion of cancellations.
I suppose the fey one couldn't sing tonight for his life, couldn't go on stage unless this or that, had such a headache and so on. I guess that's the sort of thing that would irritate Bowie.
As for being relevant, I can only say: look who's talking.



Roxy641: I think it is just sad that Morrissey would criticise Bowie who I always thought was one of his heros.



Earthling on Fire: And I think it is sad that everything Morrissey ever writes or says reeks of either sheer stupidity or petty spitefulness except this: "it's so easy to laugh/it's so easy to hate/it takes guts to be gentle and kind"... but then it might have been ironical, iroy being a definingly frequent feature with this sad, frustrated type.



Earthling on Fire:

In reply to:

all the Moz has achieved in the last 7 is a big FUCK ALL!


Yes, isn't that great. I mean after Southpaw Grammar, which may have the most disgusting cover ever, the most horrible production ever (with a sound not unlike some of the worse pseudo-prog artefact of the early '70s in a very heavy and unfocused way), some of the sloppiest so-called songwriting ever (beginning with the opening theme of Shostakovitch's 5th symphony repeated over and over over 10 fucking minutes - very imaginative, eh)... the best we can hope is that he never releases anything ever any more ever ever, but finally gets a life instead. It's the only possible way to take the poison out of him, PROVIDED the poison only comes frustration and not sheer constitutional malice.



LByron: Morrisey is not relevant, and is definitely boring! Hope he will not make another album for the next 70 years!!!



EJSunday:

In reply to:

He was only relevant by accident


Moanrissey was only relevant by mistake. Speaks for itself that he needed the musically rather miserable 80s to become a little famous. He has never come up with anything that made me happy - that is apart from pulling out of his support slot for Bowie's Berlin gig on the Outside tour. Defintely the best thing that this miserable vocalist has ever done for me. (I once endured a Johnny Marr show - boy, that was so bad)

And talking with Morrissey about current music is like talking to Maggie Thatcher about modern economics.



bowiefanpeter: I think Bowie started this little quarrel by making some offhand comments during TM1 press Q interview. The Smiths may have still been intact at the time. DB called M's vocal melodies "weak". Bowie also stole M's hairstyle for the 90 tour. They have crossed paths a number of times, and have both traded subversive barbs, so it's hard to tell who's instigating what.

The only way M can get press for his latest disc is slag DB.

M may have a valid point, but I don't think it's a good idea for him to make such comments. If you really want to insult DB, make a better album than him!!!!!

While I do consider myself a fan of Morrissey's solo and group work I find the "sound" of his records suprisingly similar over the past 20 years.



EJSunday:

In reply to:

I find the "sound" of his records suprisingly similar over the past 20 years


The only chance to distinguish between two Smiths/Morrissey songs is to wait for the words in the chorus.



bowiefanpeter: <<wait for the chorus>>

It's just like attending a Dylan concert!!!!(I've been to 4) Morrissey cancelled his last Vancouver appearance.

PS I've heard a few whispered rumours about M being a big pothead. Anybody?



EJSunday:

In reply to:

It's just like attending a Dylan concert!!!!


I just saw Twister's name in the "Who's online" section. Can't wait for his reply to this blasphemic remark.



Adam: Finding true love could have made twister whimsical....so we will have to wait and see.....

Right now he appears to engaged in the relaying of private messages.




SoulLoveChild: ummm... who the fuck is Morrissey and what the hell is he doing these days? What has he ever done that is relevant?

I would have been a massive Morrissey fan if I could have gotten through one single Smiths album. Best thing Johnny Marr ever did was The The.



diamondogz74: RE: What's put a bee in Morrissey's bonnet?.

Two words zigbot

1/Has
2/Been
Oh lets chuck in a third for some fun,Jealousy.



romanticfool: Heaven knows I'm miserable now? You sure are, Morrissey.

I can hardly ever take anything M says seriously, because he's such a whiner, but mostly he just makes me laugh.

Bowie: changed the face of music, forever.

Morrissey: makes music people kill themselves to.

There's no competition.



RabbitFighter:

In reply to:

Morrissey: makes music people kill themselves to


That's the very reason why I adore the guy.



Tristan:

In reply to:

Best thing Johnny Marr ever did was The The.


Another The The fan?



Emilio: "Unfortunately he might be correct. I wouldn´t call Bowie´s latest works bad but maybe predictable and yawning at times."

That's what I thought about him in the mid-80's, that he had become predictable, popular and commercial. Time showed he still had a few surprises up his sleeve, though.



Lady Androgyne:

In reply to:

(He is) not the person he was. He is no longer David Bowie at all


That's just crap, David is always David, whatever he does, that's the thing about him, he always change. Can't label him.
I don't know what Morrisey means, but if he means David was himself in the 70's I think he'd better do his homework.


diamondogz74: He most certainly is a whiner.

He is depressing and quite drab is'nt he.

Plus he lives in Los Angeles,The place where plastic smiles are to be found in abundance,Lets hope hes got enuff pennies left to buy a slight smirk!.



Tristan:

In reply to:

That's what I thought about him in the mid-80's, that he had become predictable, popular and commercial.


Seems like we're back in the mid-80's again to me.



poorsoul:

In reply to:

(He is) not the person he was.


Noone can deny that, though lacking a stated point of comparison does make the following comment hard to appraise.

In reply to:

He is no longer David Bowie at all. Now he gives people what he thinks will make them happy



Ignoring the first sentence, I think he's absolutely right. Look at Tin Machine, look at 1. Outside, even 'hours...' - this projects all occured because Bowie was making the music that he wanted to make, regardless of what the critics thought of them (which, in most cases, wasn't much).

Why did Heathen and Reality gain such good receptions? Because it was the type of music the critics wanted to hear: a lower-key, more conservative, straight-edged, 'normal' Bowie. His songwriting is, for the most part, solid but far from groundbreaking. As soon as he starts to be daring again (which I doubt will occur in time for the next album), they'll start turning away again and begin to speculate on "his best album since Reality".

In reply to:

and they're yawning their heads off.


Unfortunately, he's dead wrong there. Everyone loves mediocrity.


In reply to:

And by doing that, he is not relevant. He was only relevant by accident.


Both statements are true: by making music that maintains the status quo, Bowie isn't going to be remembered for making an impact. And since he's already flirted with pop stardom, he's hardly likely to shift the opinions of the Phil Collins fans, who chant for him to sing China Girl and look perplexed when he starts singing Fantastic Voyage or The Motel.

So why does that make him irrelevant? Look how many bands his music has influenced and what their top picks are. Chances are they'll pick something from 1971 to 1980. How many were inspired by Let's Dance or Never Let Me Down? None, because they were simply products of their time and, as such, now sound horribly dated and, in the end, I think that's how Reality will be viewed, as a fairly typical album from the early noughties. Why else would he tour with such bland supporting bands as The Dandy Warhols or Something For Kate, when nine years ago he was singing duets with Trent Reznor?

As for the final comment, of course he was "relevant by accident". He didn't chose to influence so many future musicians, who could just have easily listened to Bob Dylan or The Police. What he did do, though, was try to make music which stood out from the crowd, which brought new elements into mainstream rock and it's for that that he will ultimately be remembered.



diamondogz74: Never ever again will there be a mid-80s period in Bowies career.

You ought to know better dear Tristan.



Sysiyo:

In reply to:

Never ever again will there be a mid-80s period in Bowies career.

You ought to know better dear Tristan.


Based on what? To me it seems he's plunging headlong into similar mentility. Only back then he was plunging into commercial music of the day to make cash. Today he's plunging into his past to make cash.



BigFatDog: Yeah, exactly - quite rightly too.

Bowie isn't where he is today by releasing albums like Reality, but quite simply because of his amazing back catalogue. When I see him in concert I like hearing songs from the early days (MWSTW etc.), Ziggy and the supposed "commerical music" as you so elequently put it, right the way through to today.



EJSunday:

In reply to:

Today he's plunging into his past to make cash.


Which is defintely wrong concerning "Heathen". Not an album of the past, not at all.



Grey_Nihilist: I do think Morrissey has a bit of a point. But then again, he's also a navel-gazing, pretentious pseudo-intellectual who sings like a drugged muppet. Without Johnny Marr, he is nothing.



Sysiyo:

In reply to:

Which is defintely wrong concerning "Heathen". Not an album of the past, not at all.


Not overall, perhaps, but there are quite a few retroactive moments in the album. Songs like Slow Burn, Afraid and perhaps Gemini Spaceship do dip into the past, in some form or another. But I admit this phenomenon is more notable on the Reality album and tour.

And I'm not saying BTW that Bowie shouldn't perform his old songs on tour. Of course he should, they're all good songs, the hits and fan favourites alike. I certainly wouldn't want to hear a tour that plays only tracks from Reality.



EuropeanCanon: In terms of questioning Bowie's relevance, Morrissey indeed has a perfectly valid point. But what detracts from his view is the bitchy sniping from someone who, since the shenanigans of the Outside tour, feels affronted by his hero. This isn't unique to Morrissey. We've seen similar barbs directed towards Bowie from Gary Numan after a perceived snub from Bowie about 25 years ago. I'm quite sure that John Lydon is an admirer of Bowie, but he too has insulted Bowie on a personal level after some slur or other from Bowie towards Lydon (Lydon being thrown out of an Iggy gig at Bowie's prompting?). However, it's in Lydon's punk remit to slag all and sundry and Bowie does seem to have been spared Lydon's vitriol more than most.

It's nigh on impossible in such an increasingly youthful and ageist genre for Bowie to occupy the same relevance as he did throughout the 1970s/early 80s, an unparalleled lengthy golden period of creative highs and of genuine cultural change kick-started by Bowie. But Bowie is involved in an industry where 30-35 year olds are often viewed as elder statesmen (ie "past it") and as such, many of their moves are open to question and ridicule with accusations of hypocrisy and the like. In another aspect, though, Bowie is still relevant, but it's a relevance born from the unchartered territory that he and a small minority of his peers currently inhabit.

It has been acknowledged by Bowie himself that he's seen as being amongst the first wave of "old" rock stars who find themselves having to justify and best articulate their position. Set against the backdrop of the consensus, who view them as an irrelevance and passe, these fifty and sixty year old somethings are guinea pigs to the current crop of the younger, so-called more relevant generation who face the same problems 20 or 30 years down the line and are looking to the preceeding generation of pop/rock stars to see how, if possible, it is done.

It's a problem that has occupied Bowie for some while, from the mid-life crisis and self-doubts of a personal and creative nature (Never Let Me Down, Tin Machine), attempts at relevance to a younger audience (1.Outside, Earthling) through to a final acceptance of age and the attendant concerns associated with the ageing process (' hours...', Heathen and Reality).

Bowie is still relevant. As a similarly iconographic figure of a later decade, with his best also considered to be well-behind him, Stephen Patrick Morrissey needs to qualify his so-far unconvincing relevance.



Claude: Morrissey is an accident!



Claude: Who is Morrissey? DAVID BOWIE is a rockstar!



Dara: [quote[Bowie is still relevant. As a similarly iconographic figure of a later decade, with his best also considered to be well-behind him, Stephen Patrick Morrissey needs to qualify his so-far unconvincing relevance.[/quote]

Indeed. In the ageist ambiance of rock, relevance tends to be measured in the ongoing impact of an artist on youth. If that's the yardstick, then there's little doubt in my mind that Bowie's relevance outstrips that of Morrissey by leagues. Morrissey has his fans, but essentially it's an ageing cult. His impact on those too young to remember the Smiths is negligible these days.

I'll never forget the shock of talking to a group of teenagers a few years ago (friends of my son) about music, when I mentioned Morrissey and my son was the only one who had even heard of him! You know, the guy from the Smiths? They'd never heard of The Smiths either. And these were guys who were all into music, with about 6000 hours of downloaded stuff on their computers.

They'd all heard of Bowie. Most had at least one Bowie Best Of.



EJSunday:

In reply to:

those too young to remember


I am too old to forget them, unfortunately.



diamondogz74: I meant in that reply to Tristan, That there will never be a mid 1980s point,I was talking about the politics of that time which influenced everyone i should imagine?.

America had Reagan
UK had Thatcher

That mixture being enough to make any artist plunge in the depths of dispair and commercialism.

We have a completely different world now ( thank goodness),Albeit an uncertain world,This uncertainess giving artists a new edge on their work.

And Bowie now lives in New York,So thats my basis for that statement.

I really do think we are in for some very experimental times ahead with Bowie.



karmastarman: You're right Claude!
Morrissey is not famous at all, or at least I've never heard of him. Who cares what he thinks?



Earthling on Fire:

In reply to:

Morrissey is not famous at all, or at least I've never heard of him. Who cares what he thinks?


That means your opinion is still far less interesting than Morrissey's, and that Elton John's is invaluable.



hangontoyourself: HAHAHAHHAHAH morrisset not famous???
however, not famous enough to make comments on bowie. who is??? except for maybe paul mccartney, but he's a wanker anyway.



pablopicasso: Morrisset?????

Isn't that ironic, don't you think?



CAwesome: No, the irony is a person singing about irony that doesn't sing about one thing that's actually ironic.



EJSunday:

In reply to:

the irony is a person singing about irony that doesn't sing about one thing that's actually ironic.


I had a nice little exchange about exactly that point and that super-dumb song quite a while ago in this thread with an ex-TWer under the name of thedeathcard82. Have a look at our exchange, if you like.



pablopicasso: Wow there was actually a post from Tatu_wi or whatever in that post, the first i have ever seen as a relative newcomer, if there are any mostakes in this message it is because i have just had a bottle of wone.



bowiefanpeter: Does anybody have any pictures of both Morrissey and Bowie together?

I think Bowie should "respond" to M by working with Johnny Marr.



lazender: i THINK What morrissey meant by saying BOWIE was only
"relevent by accident" , is BOWIE would go in to the studio and just create , and he is always best when he is unafraid and trying ideas that he is not sure will happen ,but he DOES know that the process in getting there will unveil interesting , original creative ,cutting edge material.
example: BERLIN TRILOGY, OUTSIDE,DIAMOND DOGS .
(write a poem without thinking to much , cut out each sentence & rearange them, u may not know how it will turn out , but some very cool ideas happen that you may not have come about normally)
at least WE can always count on a bad bowie album being as good as most earthling artist's ! kinda like bad sex, its still better then no sex.........



poorsoul:

In reply to:

In the ageist ambiance of rock, relevance tends to be measured in the ongoing impact of an artist on youth. If that's the yardstick, then there's little doubt in my mind that Bowie's relevance outstrips that of Morrissey by leagues.


There's no doubt that Bowie's work in the 70s has had a huge impact in shaping numerous musical acts but what do you think the impact of his current work will be in, say, ten years' time? How many bands are going to be inspired by the sounds of 'hours...' or Reality?

In reply to:

I'll never forget the shock of talking to a group of teenagers a few years ago (friends of my son) about music, when I mentioned Morrissey and my son was the only one who had even heard of him!


Nice story but a bit beside the point. Still, at least they weren't listening to Linkin Park. But are you sure they have 6000 hours of music? Minutes, perhaps, or megabytes but surely not hours (unless you're talking collectively, in which case there's bound to be a lot of doubling anyway.



th0mas: hours... did not really have any impact but certainly went in a direction music went anyway - reduction. using the new technics to create less. which i think got a movement many kinds of art took at that time.
not that bowie would have influenced anybody with his album, but he headed towards the right direction. and unlike reality he did this before the trend really hit the mainstream.

shit, i went completly off-topic, once again... sorry.
next time i have such a glourious idea, i will start a new hours... thread, promised!



Strawman: I could never say anything derogatory about Morrissey.

He made me a pile of money in the late eighties.



bowiefanpeter: Bowie interview for TM1 Q#33 June 1989 P. 70:

DB: (Talking about current english music scene)...What is happening there at the moment?

Q: Hardcore, deep house, various types of world music, Morrissey is still very popular....

DB: Oh he isn't bad. I thihnk he is an excellent lyric writer. I've never been able to come to term with his melodies. I'm a suck for an old fashioned melody and I find his very disparate. They tail off a lot. But I think his lyrics are absolutely superb. One of the better writer than England -- and it's very English -- has produced over the past few years. I don't know much about his image or what he's about because I've never seen him live but I like the records.
-------------

That's all the Morrissey part of the interview. I recalled this because of all the 100's of DB interviews he never goes into great detail on other current artists. The quote, including this magazine profile, is intentionally designed by Bowie to be read by Morrissey himself. This quote, which could be construed as a backhanded compliment, also predates the 95 tour debacle.

The only thing I can add about this interview is that it's from the TM period. Bowie has still dating the Glass Spider Dancer, had yet to meet Iman and was still in a "cranky" state(listen to TM1 if you want proof)

I just wanted to add this quote because Bowie was, then, in the creative gutter. And he took some verbal jabs at Morrissey. Bowie hasn't made his own barbed comments in magazines.



Adam: The whole notion of Bowie being this despised person I found very encouraging. The daily tabloids wrote hateful things and there were only one or two people at school who'd actually confess to liking David Bowie. I don't think that level of outrage exists anymore, people have forgotten how dramatic and serious it really was.

"The Slade and Faces contingents were particularly aggressive people, while those who liked Bowie, Mott The Hoople and Lou Reed tended to be slightly more passive and easily picked on. I remember standing outside concert halls in the early '70s, people would just walk past you and start kicking the queue. Everybody would just cower under a mass of Afghan coats."


Morrissey, 1988



Adam: I always thought of the English singer/songwriter Morrissey as a sort of a asexual Alan Bennett, the British playwright, because of his attention to detail. He will take a small subject matter and make a very grandeur statement of it.

His last album, "Your Arsenal", was produced, ironically, by Mick Ronson. Mick sent me a copy of the tape and I couldn´t but notice that one of the songs on the album, "I Know It´s Gonna Happen Someday", was kind of a parody of one of my earlier songs, "Rock´n Roll Suicide". And so I sort of thought it would be fun to take that song and do it the way I would have done it."


- David Bowie 1993



ziggfriedModerator
(acolyte)
02/23/11 08:59 AM
The Idiot (05/2004) new [re: ziggfried] Reply to this post

tonyinsf: No, I'm not referring to the Iggy Pop album. I'm talking about Morrissey once again.

BOWIE NOT MOZ'S STARMAN!


MORRISSEY has launched a scathing attack on DAVID BOWIE during his first television interview in 17 years.

He labeled Bowie "showie", claiming that the veteran artist was a "business’". He went on to say that the public only fell in love with Ziggy Stardust, and the visuals for Ziggy were dreamt up by someone else.

Morrissey also tore strips off the artist in an interview in the April edition of GQ magazine.

"(He is) not the person he was. He is no longer David Bowie at all. Now he gives people what he thinks will make them happy, and they're yawning their heads off. And by doing that, he is not relevant. He was only relevant by accident."

The attack on the veteran artist will be broadcast tonight (May 14) on 'The Jonathan Ross Show', where the former Smiths frontman also performs two songs, current single ‘Irish Blood, English Heart’ and the classic 1988 single ‘Everyday Is Like Sunday’.

Relations were not always tense between the two, as Bowie covered the Morrissey track ‘I Know It's Going To Happen Someday' on his Black Tie White Noise album in 1993, and asked Morrissey to join him on his 1995 tour, though Morrissey left the tour before it was over.

Morrissey’s new album ’You Are The Quarry’ is released on Monday (May 17), following the release of the single ‘Irish Blood, English Heart’, which is heading for a Top Ten entry on Sunday's chart.



SoulLoveChild: once a wanker, always..... [re: tonyinsf]

If Morrissey's WAY TOO long and undistinguished career was one quarter as brilliant as one *period* of Bowie's career, he may just be qualified to make these repetitive statements (which I guess he thinks are 'controversial' and therefore may bring him the extra publicity that he so desperately needs to sell his crap records). But..... it's not. So he should probably just shut up.



hangontoyourself: To put it VERY bluntly (and i am rather drunk right now) Moressey is a complete fucking arsehole and needs to piss off, as he is and always was crap. He can't commoent on the king of pop and rock as he's never reached the highs that bowie has and never will because he's shite. I HATE HIM.



pablopicasso: Hear, Hear!



ermacowns: Hmm.
I wonder if Bowie regrets having covered "I know it's gonna happen someday" on BTWN, after hearing those comments.

I sure do regret he did. Goddamn awful piece of crap song.



diamondogz74:

In reply to:

To put it VERY bluntly (and i am rather drunk right now) Moressey is a complete fucking arsehole and needs to piss off, as he is and always was crap. He can't commoent on the king of pop and rock as he's never reached the highs that bowie has and never will because he's shite. I HATE HIM.


Well let me echo Pablo's post, with yet another Hear! hear, i commend you on your words

Morrisey is an old prat, the guys had it, have you seen the embarressing album and single cover!, lord knows what era he's living in, silly old fool

This is the only way he can catch the public eye, by slagging off Mr Bowie.

Morrisey, eat your heart out



White Prism: Wow! Here are the comments from a Morrissey site! Without any editing at all!

Moz is slagging off Bowie in the NME this week it seems. And on the J Ross show. I quite like 70s Bowie stuff but he has been gone for a long time. In fact when Bowie played Glasgow in 1995, Moz was the support so me and few others got tickets - as you do. When Mozzer pulled out of the show, (fell out with Bowie) we had a decision - see Bowie or get a refund and go down the pub. No contest. The looks we got at the box office as they gave us our dosh back was hilarious!!!
Would have been a good double bill though, but without Moz there was no point really!

BillyGall


For me if Bowie had packed it in around 1975 then he would have been a God but much of what he did in the early 1970's has been wiped out for me by some of the dross he has done since(and let's face it there has been a lot)

I was hoping Moz would grow out of slagging off other artists.It's a side of his character that I don't like.

I think Bowie was such a hero to him and when they finally met and toured and it went horribly wrong it was a huge disappointment to Morrissey.

Johnny


Wouldn`t disagree with you on Tin Machine.That was a blip!

Top Boy


Hours was a large pile of shit. Heathen was a bit better - like a small pile of shit. I lost my faith in Bowie so I didn't even bother to buy Reality.

i_am_the_quarry



tonyinsf: I got a free subscription to Entertainment Weekly, and when it came in the post today, it has a feature on Morrissey. Sure enough, there he goes slagging off Bowie in the interview. Same old rehash. He does have one nice thing to say though: "One thing to Bowie credit: He has refused to accept a knighthood." But then he follows it up by saying, "Probably because he wants to be, I dunno, Lady-in-Waiting."



hangontoyourself: Is it just me or do these people know quite a lot about bowie's latest for people who dislike bowie???



White Prism: Yes.

And here's what you said about Morrissey:

he is and always was crap. He can't commoent on the king of pop and rock as he's never reached the highs that bowie has and never will because he's shite.

So, to redress the balance, what is it you don't like about We Are the Quarry or Maladjusted?



hangontoyourself: i will concede that these comments are based on very very vague knowledge of morrissey. I've heard some Smiths and his new single or somat from his album on the radio, and they were all mightily piss poor. These are sweeping generalizations clearly, I admit that, but I feel i have enough knowledge to make some comment. I don't know the names of his last 3 albums (unlike the bowie-hater).



Claude: Poor Morrissey!



bowiefanpeter: <<He's not the person he was>>

I thought Bowie based his career on change.

<<they're yawning their heads off>>

Is Morrissey indirectly saying that he attended a recent Reality performance?

That said, while I do think Morrissey's commments are out of place, the only reason they are getting press mileage is because there is a hint of truth.



Dan Dare: Morrissey rolls out this kind of vitriol more as publicity for his crap solo efforts. Remember when we was slagging the Beatles all the time way back when, and this is just more of the same.

I've a feeling he's pissed off because Bowie wouldn't let Morrissey $uck his c*ck backstage when he opened for him.

The Smiths were great, but this is due to Johnny Marr, not the wailing and moaning of a self obsessed agst-addicted teenager who can't get a shag.



hangontoyourself: why does he talk about bowie all the time? has he just run out of things to say, bless him?



EJSunday:

In reply to:

the only reason they are getting press mileage is because there is a hint of truth.


Or because Morissey's got a new album out. He needs some coverage - desperately. Won't help though.


bowiefanpeter: If this comment is so out of line, then the UK music press will call him on it, right?

The best Morrissey comment I've ever seen is from Johnny Marr(Smiths guitarist) when asked what he was like. "All I think Morrissey needs is a good lay once and a while" Wish I could find that quote now....



hangontoyourself: He's so ridiculously boring - it's almost like he TRIES to be shite.



Strawman:

In reply to:

The attack on the veteran artist will be broadcast tonight (May 14) on 'The Jonathan Ross Show'


Sense prevailed & the comments were edited outski.

Shame. They should have allowed him to make an even bigger prick of himself.

The twat.



bowiefanpeter: It's a shame the comments weren't aired, then the world could see his true colours. I was awaiting to see what Ross respnse would be since he is perhaps the biggest Bowie fan in UK media(or damn near close) I'd really liked ot have seen Ross respond to these "outbursts"

I have a sense that some greater power requested these comments removed(record company handlers or the Ross people are my guesses)

Anybody else hoping for Bowie to publically respond with a good zinger?



zigbot:

In reply to:

I've a feeling he's pissed off because Bowie wouldn't let Morrissey $uck his c*ck backstage when he opened for him.


I must be Beavis . . . or Butthead . . . or just plain silly on a Friday afternoon, because I found this extremely funny!

Seriously, though, what was the nature of Bowie and Moz's "falling out"?



bowiefanpeter: This reminds me of something that i hadn't figured out.

The DB/NIN tour had 5 weeks of rehearsal where the worked out the segueway between their 2 sets. Did the DB/M tour have similar rehearsals before opening night or did they plan to do equal sets and one duet?



RabbitFighter: Morissey's constant anti-Bowie comments are a bit irritating but if You are the quarry indeed is as great as I suspect (i'm basing my assumptions on snippets i've heard plus the single), i'm more than willing to forgive him.
Infact, if I had to choose between Bowie and Morrissey (i'm including Smiths here) there's no doubt about it: Thin white duke would be the one left behind. Okay, it would be one tough decision but i'd still pick Morrissey. The guy knows how to get inside my head...



White Prism: Right. It's just that I'm suspicious of people who brand someone's entire output as shit without showing much evidence that they've heard much of it. Just be careful in future. One of the reasons why the Morrissey fans might know more about Bowie's work than we about Morrissey is that they're at least clued-up about Bowie in 70s, bearing in mind Morrissey has regularly cited him as an influence, though they may well be simply reworking Mozza's comments about his 90s stuff without having heard it themselves. It appears that Bowie, at one stage at least, did like Morrissey/Smiths, from his comments here, and obviously had some considerable respect for him to tour with him and cover one of his songs . . . so it's possible I might listen to some of his post-Smiths stuff eventually.



diamondogz74:

In reply to:

He does have one nice thing to say though: "One thing to Bowie credit: He has refused to accept a knighthood." But then he follows it up by saying, "Probably because he wants to be, I dunno, Lady-in-Waiting."


Well without going into too much detail, this is right up Morrisey's street isn't it?

Morrisey has absolutely nothing to offer the musical world anymore



Guust: I can't help liking the music of Morrissey and The Smiths, although I notice a lot of you people don't. I even like the new single (and the cover Bowie did of 'I Know...', i'm sure you all hate me now).

Now, I didn't know about the comment he made on Bowie 'till now, but I did watch Jonathon Ross last night. Even without knowing anything about the quotes that weren't broadcasted, I was still planning to post a thread about what a prick Moz was on that show! Though some parts were hard to follow for me (I'm dutch-speaking), but it was easy to notice how pretentious and arrogant his whole attitude was. He couldn't laugh with any of the jokes Jonathan made, and his reaction on the fragment from 'stars in their eyes' was very childish. It's gonna be hard for me to still enjoy his music now... or shouldn't that make any difference?

Just to make things clear: for me, the artistic battle between Bowie and Moz is easily won by Bowie. Give me a Bowie-gig or -album any day.



RabbitFighter:

In reply to:

Though some parts were hard to follow for me (I'm dutch-speaking), but it was easy to notice how pretentious and arrogant his whole attitude was. He couldn't laugh with any of the jokes Jonathan made, and his reaction on the fragment from 'stars in their eyes' was very childish. It's gonna be hard for me to still enjoy his music now... or shouldn't that make any difference?


You were surprised? That's the genuine Morrissey for you: arrogant as hell and dead serious. If you're really into his music I find it hard to believe that you were expecting anything else.



Guust: I'm not really into his music, I just own 'best of the smiths I and II' and 'suedehead, the best of Morrissey' and they pleased me. Actually, I found some of his lyrics (at least those from the smiths) quite funny, but maybe they weren't meant to be so. I hadn't really thought 'bout what kind of a man he would be. I guess this has opened my eyes...



dice:

In reply to:

The Smiths were great, but this is due to Johnny Marr


who has done exactly what since the smiths ended?



pablopicasso: The sminths were great, period.
But alas the whole was greater than the parts.



tonyinsf:

In reply to:

Anybody else hoping for Bowie to publically respond with a good zinger?


No. Bowie should ignore him. His own remarks speaks volumes about himself than it does about Bowie.

In other words, put the Moz on his Bozo list.



dukewhite: Bowie's not really one to get into flame wars with other artists, even if there are differences.

This is just the kind of press Bowie doesn't need now though. We, in the Bowie camp, are intelligent and informed enough to know that this is just Morrissey talking shit, and we have heard Bowie's recent output and can make our own judgements. But the average fan might not know that. It's true that Bowie's sales now are nothing impressive and a lot of people are idiots and will just take Morrissey's comments at face value and store them in their heads with no opinion of their own to tie to it. If Bowie really wants to enter into another period of experimentation, he needs a strong following of fans to go with him on that journey. The tour is helping, but he needs support from other artists that respect him. Not this shit.



RabbitFighter:

In reply to:

we have heard Bowie's recent output and can make our own judgements


This raises an interesting question. Some of you people didn't hesitate at all when you decided to slag off Reality when it came out but you're more than willing to see Mozza as the big, bad antichrist.
Isn't he allowed to be disappointed with Bowie's recent output, just like you?



poorsoul: You are, of course, absoultely right. He has every right to make a personal comment about Bowie's current output and career. I think the problem that everyone's picking on, though, is that he's overgeneralising his own position to include Bowie fans in general who he couldn't possibly speak for. True, there were a lot of people criticising the album and tour here (myself included), who would probably agree with the statement that Bowie is presenting a fairly populist front at the moment. However, Morrissey then goes on to contradict that assertion, claiming that noone's interested in Bowie's current direction, which is clearly wrong if sales figures are anything to go by. I think Reality is a dull album but I know I'm in the minority because it has fulfilled its aim of acheiving a certain amount of popularity, at least moreso than just about all of the albums from the past decade. Still, I think most of this has been covered before.



tonyinsf: If one one is concerned about the direction Bowie is going in, then why does he keep talking about it?

This week, he'll be on "The Late Late Show With Craig Kilborn" for a sit down interview on May 24, and then for the rest of the week, he will appear as the musical guest each night.

Kilborn: "His music conveys the loneliness and despair of a man hosting a 12:30 a.m. talk show on CBS."



SoulLoveChild:

In reply to:

In reply to:
------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Smiths were great, but this is due to Johnny Marr

------------------------------------------------------------------------
who has done exactly what since the smiths ended?


Um.... The The with Matt Johnson, which shat all over the Smiths stuff anyways. He's also worked with Billy Bragg, Bryan Ferry, Talking Heads, Kirsty MacColl, The Cult, Pet Shop Boys, The Pretenders, Beth Orton, Ian McCulloch, Black Grape, Beck, Neil Finn, Bert Jansch and Bernard Butler.



pablopicasso: Not mentioning Electronic.



Tristan: I just saw the album cover this morning in the "New Release" section of my Best Buy advert in the Sunday Newspaper.



hangontoyourself: After seeing Morrissey on Johnathon Ross a couple of days ago, I've decided he is THE most IRRITATING person on the planet, more than Brian Ferry, more than John "I'm so boring" Peel.



pablopicasso: Was anyone here in the audience for this show, what was Ross' reaction to his outburst?



bowiefanpeter: I hoping some sort of bootleg or internet snippet turns up.



zigbot: I agree, dukewhite, Bowie isn't much of a mud-slinger when it come to other artists, and I like it that way. He's above this shit, and Morissey is clearly covered in this shit.

I just don't understand how someone who once idolized Bowie, who was inspired and moved by him, who got to meet him as a fan and who had the amazing experience of being a musician who got to work with him can ever slag him off like that. Christ, if Bowie and I toured together, he could publicly make fun of me, kill my pet, and shag my husband--I'd be pissed about it for a while, and then . . . I'd put on Low and forgive Uncle David all his sins. Morissey is an ingrate.



RabbitFighter:

In reply to:

Bowie isn't much of a mud-slinger when it come to other artists, and I like it that way. He's above this shit


Tell it to Gary Numan.



pablopicasso: re: zigbot

Does your husband know about this???



zigbot: ROTFLMAO! Hell no, pablo!



bowiefanpeter: Anybody else get the feeling that the Morrissey/Bowie meetings in 1995 weren't what he expected and he felt let down?

I also think the new Morrissey may outsell Reality, but that's only because it's been so long since he made a record.

It takes Morrissey to go away for 7 years for the UK press to give a shit.



SoulLoveChild:

In reply to:

Anybody else get the feeling that the Morrissey/Bowie meetings in 1995 weren't what he expected and he felt let down?


Perhaps Moz didn't 'get' the 1.Outside gist at the time (I didn't, till I got to London in 96) and he didn't want a part of it? Bet he's kicking himself now and is reacting by slinging shit around?



bowiefanpeter: It's definitely true that Bowie (circa 1995) was designed to be closer to NIN than Morrissey.

While they didn't do any duets in 95, they did do one in 1992 at a sold out LA Forum(Morrissey could once sell out US arenas?!?!) They mutually agreed on T.Rex's "Cosmic Dancer", when Bowie strolled on unannounced with an acoustic.

There has been a very poor audience tap floating around since the time and I actually enjoyed what I could hear. There was, in 2000/1, a Morrissey documentary that aired a pro-grade video and audio of the performance. Curiously, the clip, or audio, has not been circulated amongst Bowie colectors. Perhaps Morrissey and Bowie fans don't really like each other?



JonnyManic: What comes across most when reading through Morrissey's constantly re-itterated dislike for Bowie is utter childishness, the way you might start making fun of your old friends to get in with a new crowd. Most of Morrissey's solo stuff is grindingly dull which is predictable since the guy doesn't seem to know the first thing about composition or musicianship. Johnny Marr's work with Electronic by far outstrips anything Morrissey's put out since leaving The Smiths.

His new single, "Irish Blood, English Heart", is actually pretty good, though.



Adam: 'Irish Blood, English Heart' has entered the UK charts at number 3, making this Morrissey's biggest hit ever - surpassing anything from his solo career or with The Smiths!

The album meanwhile crashes in at number 2 - his best chart position since 1994's Vauxhal and I.



Adam:

In reply to:

He went on to say that the public only fell in love with Ziggy Stardust, and the visuals for Ziggy were dreamt up by someone else.


Morrissey is only describing his own experience. This is what he has said previously about attending Ziggy Stardust concerts:

I would be there at noon, and I would be pressed against the door twelve hours before anybody was ever going to think about opening. And I would race to the stage, and an industrial crane couldn't move me from that spot. You would have to blowtorch me off the front of the set if you wanted to move me. I was there, wanting some form of evidence, commitment. Wanting the world to change. Someone to do it for me. That's what I saw. And so that's what I wanted to provide.

I would have been interested in seeing the original uncut version of Jonathan Ross at least to see how JR handled his bullshit.



EJSunday: I have never understood why Morrissey and The Smiths got praised for their music beyond maybe five songs.

True 80s crap.

The man can't sing. Back in the 80s when that Smth hype started I saw some live show on German tv and was shocked: How could anybody with a horrible live voice as him be hailed a hero? A shitty whinger who underpassed the already poor standards of most of the music of that era. Easily. And their studio recordings were nothing but the fine art of repetition heavily due to Morrissey's one tone singing but also to Johnny Marr's fairly stylish but also fairly limited guitar playing. A one trick pony.

I saw Johnny Marr live a few years ago - ranks among the most boring shows I ever witnessed. And his singing makes even Morissey standing a chance for not coming last in the most miserable live singer contest.

I am sure that Morissey would have long been forgotten as a musician if he hadn't produced a few headlines about his weird persona at the early stages of his success. And as he seems clever enough to undestand that he cannot cut it as a singer he tries to get back to the top by what got him there before: Making headlines. At least tiny ones.



Max_M: I'm surprisd he got to number 3 in the singles market. Unfortunately this will make him even more smug. I wish Bowie would try releasing more singles.

Yes, Bowie has slagged off other artists too, but he doesn't go on about the same person in every interview like some kind of nutcase desperately seeking publicity. If Bowie wants to attack him back, he should do it by airing his views in song ala 'Scream Like A Baby' and 'Lucy Can't Dance.' Far more entertaining.



RabbitFighter: After you've succesfully thrown out younger, charttopping artist from a tv show because of jealousy it's hard to sink any lower. Morrissey has a long road to travel if he wants to be as much of a fuckwit as Bowie was.



Max_M: Who did he get thrown off? I'm not sure I understand what you're referring to.



RabbitFighter: Gary Numan. I believe the year was either 79 or 80. I'd check the details from Strange Fascination but I have no idea where the book is at the moment. I believe David Mallet was somehow involved with the show in question and Bowie used his friendship with the guy as a leverage to kick Numan out. You can't sink much lower than that.



poorsoul: And didn't he have one of the Sex Pistols thrown out of an Iggy Pop gig (although admittedly there might've been a stronger case for doing so)? Still, that's low; if it'd been during his paranoid cokehead era I would've understood but he was supposed to be cleaning up by then so there's really no excuse. I wonder if that line from Slowcar To China ("you will pay Mr Jones") is related or if he just happened to pick it as a common name.



ziggfried:

In reply to:

And didn't he have one of the Sex Pistols thrown out of an Iggy Pop gig (although admittedly there might've been a stronger case for doing so)?


In his autobiography, John Lydon claims that he was having a conversation with Iggy backstage after Iggy's gig, then Bowie walked in and for no apparent reason had his goons throw him out. However, Scott Asheton (part of Iggy's band) recalls the situation differently - he claims that Bowie and Iggy were having a civil conversation with Lydon, then Lydon got up and swore at them and stormed off (to talk to Iggy's band instead).

Which brings me to Gary Numan. As far as I know, all we have to go on regarding the Bowie incident is what Numan himself has said about it. And it's not exactly reliable testimony, given Numan's predilection for two-facedness (ie. making his name as a Bowie clone/freely admitting his fandom, then later on claiming that Bowie had little influence on him, and that he admired Low more for Brian Eno). I'm not saying that Bowie wasn't a bastard at the time, but I'd rather hear his side, or failing that, someone else besides Numan, before I make a judgement. I mean, how do we know Numan didn't say something to Bowie at the time that provoked him?



Dara:

In reply to:

If this comment is so out of line, then the UK music press will call him on it, right?


Huh? This is just one guy's opinion. It's not the function of the press to set him straight.

Jonny is right though: to understand Morrissey, you need to understand how childish he is. Everything about him, his badly-thought out political positions (which have bordered on the racist and xenophobic at times), his Holier-than-Thou vegetarianism, the way he slags all his old friends off, the way he looked at Ziggy and just saw the costumes....this all tells you that mentally he's still a child, and a superficial one who thinks he's smarter than he is at that.

Morrissey used to drink quite a bit in a pub here in Dublin that I also frequented. He always gave the impression he wanted to be seen, he wanted someone to come up and hassle him, just so he could complain about getting hassled when he just wanted to enjoy a quiet drink.

Since he's moved to the States, he seems to have just got odder. He came across really poorly on Jonathon Ross - he made Ross look like a genius by comparison. And I don't get his whole "I'm not a performer, I'm real" shtick either. Who does he think he is all of a sudden, Bruce Springsteen?

That said, it is kinda nice to see him back. A superficial little kid he may be, but that can be entertaining in small doses. And if his single success shows Bowie and his record company how easy it is to score a big UK single these days, that'll be a good thing.



tourist: Wanker. I thought DB would be the last person Morrissey could criticise, given Morrissey's one-dimentional back catalogue... hearing middle aged men sing about growing pains is kind of silly. Besides, DB never claimed to be up with the times, he does his own style regardless of whether it's in or out of style.



Persilot: To be honest I couldn't give a crap about the kind of things artists say about each other. All I actually care about is if their music is any good. I happen to like The Smiths and Morrissey's new album (which I have on right now). Just because he happened to slag Bowie off doesn't devalue the worth of his music for me.

Plus I find Jonathon Ross extremely nauesuting. He licks the arse of every guest they have on... then goes on to slag them off later on. When he has Bowie on it, is almost cringeworthingly embarrassing to watch just how much he fawns over him. I for one would have paid good money to have been in the audience just to watch the smirk on his smug face fade as Morrissey laid into Bowie.

I get the feeling I tend to be in the minority view… but I feel Morrissey is entitled to any opinion he cares to make. If you put something out in the public sector you have to face that you might be criticised



RabbitFighter:

In reply to:

how easy it is to score a big UK single these days


Apparently in US too. Irish blood, English heart went straight to 4th place on the billboard chart.

edit: Persilot my man, it's nice to see for a change that somebody isn't hellbound to defend Bowie till the end.



prrrrr: Agreed - base opinion on their artistic output. Period.

Problem I have with what was said is that the comments do come across as childish: "showie Bowie" - calling names???? wtf

Saying Bowie is not the person he was... what the hell is that supposed to mean. Musically... I hope not - he progresses and changes; develops his ideas etc. If he's talking about personally, then he should know him very well to make that kind of observation & statement.

If he was to comment solely on his opinions of Bowie's work, I have no problem with that. However, when he makes personal comments and talks about "people yawning their heads off" - what, he took a poll? I'm not yawning & many Bowie fans are not.

I don't feel the need to trash Morrissey, but I don't think these remarks give him any credibility (at least not in my book). Sounds more like a "hissy fit", as though he was disappointed that someone isn't living up to his expectations, therefore, they must suck.

Childish. I don't put much value on his opinions, they just seem so self-serving.



RabbitFighter: You call Reality progression?



prrrrr: Not necessarily RabbitFighter, but you know what? In a 30+ year career, you better believe I think he's progressed, don't you?

It's stretching it to think that I would like every single work by any artist, no matter how much I admire them. I may not always agree with a direction either, but I continue to find Bowie interesting and relevant. It's not just a historical thing (i.e. what he meant to music in past, his influence on others etc.). I think he continues to have a lot to bring to the table, and I'm there, waiting to be fed.

You know, progression is a process. Sometimes what might be seen as a backward step, or even stagnation, is part of that process.

I like Reality ok; it's not one of my favorites, but I think some of those songs play amazing live... which is primarily what he claims he wrote this album for - to be performed live. In fact, the Loneliest Guy, not even one of my favorite songs from the CD, is the one song that almost brought me to tears in London - and that's saying something, because London was a fantastic show.



RabbitFighter: I wouldn't dare to deny Bowie's musical importance and the magnificent cycle of stylechanges (I think i'll leave that to NoControl) but I don't find Reality all that thrilling. It's a solid album allright but this isn't THE David Bowie who created some of the most magnificent pieces of music during the 20th century. As far as I can see, that's what Morrissey was saying all along, he wasn't trying to tear down Bowie's past successes. It might be true that his statements are fired up by some personal differences but that doesn't change the fact that Bowie could do a lot better than Reality.
On a positive side I might add that if Morrissey's been able to pull of such a marvelous comeback, i'm sure that Bowie isn't permanently turning into a former shadow of himself (like Mccartney or Jagger and co).



JonnyManic: quote]I happen to like The Smiths and Morrissey's new album (which I have on right now).[/quote]

Meh, it's an ok album but it's so predictable and one-note that it I very much doubt I'd be interested in listening to it very often. The problem is that Morrisey ain't a songwriter and, surrounded my session musos, it's a hit-and-miss game for him to come up with a good song. Unfortunately, this album has the added weakness of some of the most poorly fleshed-out Morrissey lyrics I've ever heard. Even the single (by far the standout track) has him blathering on trying to defend his Union Jack/National Front fetishist days.



Dara:

In reply to:

Apparently in US too. Irish blood, English heart went straight to 4th place on the billboard chart.


Really? Where did you hear this? I can't find it anywhere on the Billboard chart at the official Billboard site.



MichelleAlder: Last time I checked the majority of the the albums put out by The Smiths sucked and I don't remember his solo career being any better. He has one of the worst voices in music history and is a bad imitation of a bad imitation of Robert Smith. Why oh why can't he be hit by a bus already?



RabbitFighter: I got my info from here



Dara: Thanks. Digging around the site, I see from the message board there that it's not the main Billboard 100 chart it's on (which is mostly based on airplay), but the pure sales chart. I didn't know there was such a thing, there's no indication of it at the Billboard site, but maybe the record company has access to it.

Also, apparently it only had to sell about 4000 copies in the US to make #4, which shows you how small the sales market for singles there is now. The vast majority of "hit" singles don't get a retail release, and you can see why. If the fourth biggest seller sells only 4000 distributed across 50 states and God knows how many record stores, it can't be economical.



Adam: I'm listening to the single thanks to their multimedia section and it's not bad.

Back to Bowie - this is just an inclination, but it seems to me that a lot of his singles chart positions in the 90s were secured because hardcore fans would purchase in the first week (especially the case for lead singles which almost always charted well despite often being radio-unfriendly). Now in the 00s where single sales are down, the ground would be even more ripe for achieving some really high chart positions. It's all a bit puzzling but also disappointing that they are not taking advantage of this.



RabbitFighter:

In reply to:

lot of his singles chart positions in the 90s were secured because hardcore fans would purchase in the first week


That's probably the reason and shows genuine commitment from fans. Hell, even Numan was able to get his latest single Crazier to UK top 20 even though you can hardly call him chart friendly. Ofcourse it disappearad faster from charts than Tonight but it had already served it's purpose (promotion).
All this makes me quite confident that Bowie could indeed have a uk chart topper...



pablopicasso: I'm sure with help from the internet a major hit would be quite easy to secure, with fans syncronising their buying, of course, Bowie just isn't interested in this, but from a fans point of view, it feels like vindication for sticking with him when all around think he is a has-been.



jump93: remember jump they say??

well that was 11 years ago.
another top 10 chart smash like that is well due by now, and he CAN do it.

marillion did a campaign on their website last month to get their comeback single "you're gone" into the top 10.
all the fans bought it and it reached an impressive no.7, there first top 40 single in 9 years!!!

bowie is more than capable of getting in the top 10, nevermind the top 20.



GodlessWonder: I've wanted to make a post on this thread but not been too sure what to say.

Basically, I feel that Morrissey isn't a wonderful artist, some of his lyrics are very good, and some of the songs are great, I love Big Mouth and Charming Man, but he isn't stand out for me. To me he's middle of the road, like Coldplay or Travis, doing nothing interesting. The new album is quite frankly predictable and while not truely crap it is cringe worthy - but no less than Tonight.

He is an arrogant bastard, yes, and I guess this comes from self styling and to slag Bowie off seems a little childish considering that Daddy is a much better artist because he does progress.

And yes, Rabbitfighter, I do consider Reality to be a progession, far more than We are the Quarry is anyhow. Maybe that isn't saying anything, but when compared to 3/4 of the shit that gets made nowadays progression is all reletive.



GodlessWonder:

In reply to:

bowie is more than capable of getting in the top 10, nevermind the top 20.


I'm sure he can, but maybe he doesn't want to...



Max_M: If he does release another single, he should definitely do it before the album comes out, and not after.



bowiefanpeter:mDoes anybody know where I can find a Morrissey message board that talks about this incident. I wouldn't mind reading something less DB centric and it should entertaining.



Max_M: No, but I've seen a topic about it on a Kylie Minogue forum. To quote:

In reply to:

This is about as tragic as Sonia attacking Mel B. Two irrelevent has-beens that haven't contributed anything useful in years.




RabbitFighter: Thanks, that just made my day!



jump93:m 2 or 3 singles before the album comes out would get even more sales, providing the material is all well and good.
e.g..

Single 1 - No.20. Ooh bowie is back.
Single 2 - No.14. I'm desperate to hear this new album, but for now I'll check out this single.
Single 3 - No.8. Come on album! i'm dying for it, this is brilliant!!

-Album goes top 5-

Single 4 - No.35

Although it is quite silly to release 4 singles from an album in my view, the method I just shown would get a lot of sales, and if not getting quite those chart positions, will do well.

Another thing - music video.
A single cannot get anywhere these days without a video. It's not 1982 where he can get something like Baal in the top 30 without any video or major promotion!
Gary Numans "Crazier" reached No.13, yes, but it had a promo video which helped a lot and got considerable airplay on stations like Kerrang!, Q, and The Amp.



indy: I've had conversations with Morrissey about Bowie back in 1987-89. He was a massive fan when he was younger but always felt let down that David told differing stories of his sexuality. That's what got Morrissey into Bowie in the first place. Of course there have been loads of others who claimed Bowie was their hero only to slag him off at some other date. Either for publicity or that their careers had disappeared. Some have come out since and kissed his arse. Like Ian McCulloch, Robert Smith, Siouxsie Sioux to name but a few.
Morrissey has always been a wind -up merchant. He's always done it.
Remember, Bowie probably is laughing his head off about it anyway. I don't care what Morrissey has to say these days anyway. I only care about what the music says to me.
And that goes for everyone in the music industry that I like.



poorsoul:

In reply to:

This is about as tragic as Sonia attacking Mel B. Two irrelevent has-beens that haven't contributed anything useful in years.


I like the use of the word "useful". I wonder what it is exactly that person wants to use their albums for.

"Well, I thought this one would look nice sitting on the mantlepiece but it just doesn't match the decor."



poorsoul:

In reply to:

Bowie is more than capable of getting in the top 10, nevermind the top 20.


If he ever gets around to releasing a proper single.

In reply to:

Gary Numans "Crazier" reached No.13, yes, but it had a promo video which helped a lot and got considerable airplay on stations like Kerrang!, Q and The Amp.


Which might help him reach more of his target audience but that's not really very much support when you think about it. Every little bit helps, of course, but I think a lot of its success is attributable to hardcore fans voting for it via Kerrang's phone-in and then rushing out to buy it during the first week or preordering online. Also, it was in three parts, so its sales were probably inflated in comparison with other available releases.



Dara:

In reply to:

Also, it was in three parts, so its sales were probably inflated in comparison with other available releases.


I doubt that. As far as I can see, all singles aimed at the charts are released in three parts, so it's a level playing field.

Some of the comments from non-fans on this thread about Bowie being irrelevant make interesting reading, as they clash rather stridently with the cosy consensus among hardcore fans and "quality" music mags that Bowie has had a critical renaissance in recent years. Objectively, I would say that Bowie has had a critical renissance of sorts, but it's limited largely to his existing fanbase, and certain music critics, and isn't really having a wider impact.

I think the reasons for this are inextricably bound up with his decision to effectively abandon singles and videos. This decision dates from his split with Virgin, and at the time made good economic sense. Despite the usual promotion, and some expensive videos, Bowie's singles from the mid 90s on failed to deliver return on investment. Even when they charted well (Hallo Spaceboy, Little Wonder and Thursday's Child all made the UK Top 20), it didn't seem to have any noticeable effect on album sales. Furthermore, the outlet for videos for Bowie's generation was shrinking, as was radio airplay.

So at the time, it seemed justified. And indeed Heathen gave Bowie his biggest seller worldwide in decades despite the lack of a "proper" single, and Reality fared at least as well as the three albums that had preceded Heathen, but without the expensive videos and loss leader single promotions. So from a business sense, it makes perfect sense.

But...and this is a J Lo but.....I do think it's storing up problems for Bowie's future appeal. I think in essence that while it's true the link between the singles chart and the albums one is not what it used to be, I think singles are an important longer term tool to establish that you're still around, still making the charts, still relevant. As far as most casual music fans who get most of their information from programmes like Top Of The Pops and video channels, Bowie seems to have disappeared in the last few years. Even if they scoffed at Outside and Earthling at the time, they saw Hallo Spaceboy and Little Wonder in the charts, and knew Bowie still had fans, and therefore some sort of relevancy. Now...well, his albums may be going better, but who follows album charts? When non-fans look back at this period of Bowie's career, there's nothing concrete to hold on to. All of which helps create a cultural consensus that Bowie "hasn't released anything useful in years". And when the ultimate "Bowie - The Video Collection" is compiled after it's all over, these are going to look like the lean years.

If Bowie were the type of artist who had a rabidly loyal fanbase, or didn't care if only a few thousand of the "faithful" were the only ones listening or paying attention, then fair enough. But the wildly fluctuating sales figures for his albums show his fanbase is far from loyal (even after the acclaimed success of Heathen, I'd guess that only half the people who bought it ended up buying Reality). And while he tends to "talk the talk" in interviews about not caring how his albums sell (though this doesn't stop him from bragging when the opportunity arises, as it did when Heathen's sales figures started coming in), he doesn't walk the walk. His actions betray someone who does want his albums to reach a wider audence.

Everything with Bowie is a pose, by his own admission. The "I'm too cool for singles" thing is just as much a pose as "I'm middle aged but I can still rawk out in Tin Machine" was, or as "I'm a normal friendly pop star now, let's dance" was, or as "I'm a rock n roll lovin' alien" was. Given that it made sound economic sense at the time to turn his back on singles and expensive videos, it also made good sense to adopt the "I'm too cool for all that" pose to justify it. Will it last? Did any of the other poses last much longer past the point where it became obvious they were hindering his career rather than helping it?



Diamond_Dave: Maybe if some of you guys went out to a listening post and gave the new Mozz record a chance you might just ch..ch..ch..change your minds about how crap he is.

You should all go and listen to a bit more of Mozza's solo work before pasting the poor guy.

And he was right in some respects about Bowie selling out to the mass market ......

...ie: Throwing "hits" into his live shows to pull the fans. re-releasing LP's with bonus discs full of crap knowing idiots (all of us) will buy it regardless of what shit is on there. Recording songs with P. Diddy or whatever he calls himself. Promising endless DVD and rare studio releases that will most likely NEVER see the light of day whilst he still milks us for all we are worth.

Sometimes you have to step outside the house to see just how bad the garden looks.



EJSunday: Many good points, Dara, and I think Bowie is clever enough to see those traps as well, at least partly. I am pretty sure that Bowie will very well consider his next career move because he is at a very crucial point: Without any warning he is selling albums again, without any warning he sells out a major world tour and without any warning he got overwhelming critical acclaim from the media. Noone would ever have expected that, not a few years ago and certainly not he himself. So now he is faced with a completely new situation and now he must come to doubt the things he once held as true ('scuse this little Paul Simon refrence) about his future career. Of course I have no idea what he is gonna do but I am sure he will try to profit from the current situation in that it allows him to have another re-start. Artistically and commercially.



jump93: I certainly hope so.
Btw, "Heathen" had a proper single; Everyone Says Hi in the UK (no.20) and Slow Burn in Europe.



Dara:

In reply to:

Btw, "Heathen" had a proper single; Everyone Says Hi in the UK (no.20)


Yeah, did surprisingly well in the circumstances, but for me, a "proper" single has a video designed to get airplay, and preferably is released ahead of the album. The lack of a video meant that radio stations round me wouldn't even play it (most follow the music channel playlists).



Marquis:

In reply to:

Maybe if some of you guys went out to a listening post and gave the new Mozz record a chance you might just ch..ch..ch..change your minds about how crap he is


I'll admit that I held very little hope of You are the Quarry turning out to be interesting, but what I heard of it yesterday seemed quite passable, really. I don't know that I feel compelled to buy it, but it was pleasant.



JonnyManic:

In reply to:

You should all go and listen to a bit more of Mozza's solo work before pasting the poor guy.


I've heard every solo album he's put out. I'm slating his mediocre ouput from a position of authority.

In reply to:

And he was right in some respects about Bowie selling out to the mass market ......


Yeah, I guess it just comes down to who do I sympathise with more on this point. From seeing Bowie on TV and reading about him, he comes across as a nice bloke, interesting and amusing. Morrissey, on the otherhand, comes over as a spoilt little shit who's still trying to trade on his "miserable teenager in Thatcher's Britain©" credentials when he's sunning it in California. So when Morrissey trots out the same insult to various media outlets in a blatant publicity stunt, all I can think is "What a wanker". And lo, so he is!



Max_M: What annoys me is that there was plans to release a Never Get Old/Waterloo Sunset double A-side last Christmas, but they seemingly bottled out. Never Get Old even had some sort of video I believe, with clips on the "New Killer Star" DVD.

In reply to:

Without any warning he is selling albums again, without any warning he sells out a major world tour and without any warning he got overwhelming critical acclaim from the media. Noone would ever have expected that, not a few years ago and certainly not he himself.


Indeed, Bowie never expected it. I found this quote from a 1995 Q magazine interview interesting: "I know what happens when I play the classics. I know the outcome. So why would I want to do it again? Other than for financial remuneration, which frankly I don't need... in ten years time when I'm playing to halls with no audience whatsoever, my comporaries can turn around and say, 'Well that's the reason we didn't do what you did.' But we'll see."

It's now 9 years later.



Cassiel:

In reply to:

Recording songs with P. Diddy or whatever he calls himself.


Qu'est-ce que c'est le fuck?



dukewhite:

In reply to:

As far as most casual music fans who get most of their information from programmes like Top Of The Pops and video channels, Bowie seems to have disappeared in the last few years.


Whether or not he seems to have disappeared, he's not adding to his cannon of "greatest hits" at the moment. As has been mentioned many times in other threads, Bowie has a rather impressive list of songs that everybody has heard, most of which can be found on either ChangesBowie or A Reality Tour (not so much the new Best of Bowie which adds on unmemorable songs which happened to chart well at the time). Even though "I'm Afraid of Americans" didn't chart exceptionally well by Bowie's standards, people know it, even if it is in the context of "that song Bowie did with NIN." I'm constantly amazed at how so many of my friends can say, "I can't even name a single Bowie song," but then listen to a few albums with me, or a collection of ones I know they've heard, and lo! they have heard them after all! It's Bowie not adding to this repertoire that I think is what is hurting him, not sales and chart possitions. Next time Bowie goes on the road to do a medium-to-large-scale tour (if ever again), he will play "New Killer Star" to fill the 00's hit quotient for the show, and though it might be just five years from now, no one will remember it but the hardcore fans.

Now, about Morrissey, I am of the mind that he can say what he wants, but as far as this statement goes, it has served its purpose. We are talking about it at length. I actually gave his new album a listen, which I never would have done had he not been in the media so much now with this Bowie-bashing. And I enjoyed it. Might buy it, might not. In any case, he got me to consider it. Perhaps that is another factor in charting so well in the UK (though I agree that his #4 in the US is due to a small market and a core of dedicated fans.)



Persilot: Now I know how Joan of Arc felt, as the flames they rose to her Roman nose.



Soulman: The worst part is that Moz's new album sounds quite good to my ear. I've decided to ignore what artists say (actually only when I don't find any point in their views) and just focus on what they produce.



Diamond_Dave: Ahh, now we're talking. All we need to do now is try and get all the other Mozz bashers on here to at least sample the cooking before refusing it.

What Morrissey has been saying is in some ways no differant to Bowie's "Hi, i'm Bi" shit from the early 70's or the numerous other one liners and comments thrown our way by many other popstars in passing time.

Fact remains kids, Bowie has become exactly what Mozz states...A BUSINESS!!!

When you all go and buy the 30th DD's next month remind yourself of what Mozz said about the business and don't pass the buck blaming EMI for Bowie's greed.



JonnyManic:

In reply to:

Fact remains kids, Bowie has become exactly what Mozz states...A BUSINESS!!!


That's not the part I'm taking issue with. I'm annoyed by Morrossey's immature revisionism saying that Bowie was "only relevant by accident", and then goes on to say that "he probably wanted to be the lady in waiting". Just silly, spiteful attacks. The amusing thing is that Morrissey is so insulated that he probably believes that he is in someway more relevant to popular music and culture than Bowie which is, frankly, utterly ludicrous.



tonyinsf: I downloaded the new Morrissey album from the iTunes music store. Yea, I admit it, I bought it.



RabbitFighter: You are the quarry is indeed a fabulous album. It can't touch Prince's Musicology as far as strong comebacks go but it certainly lived up to those expectations I had, which were ridicilously high by the way.



Dara:

In reply to:

The amusing thing is that Morrissey is so insulated that he probably believes that he is in someway more relevant to popular music and culture than Bowie which is, frankly, utterly ludicrous.


Indeed. Morrissey obviously still has his hardcore, but outside of that he has no real relevancy these days. Bowie at least is still a household name. Only the 80s generation really remembers Morrissey these days. This was brought home to me starkly when I was chatting to my eldest son and some of his college friends one day. Typical college kids - into their music, all sorts of stuff you'd never hear on the radio or even read about in NME, and also into "classics" like Bowie, Pink Floyd, Dylan etc. Then I mentioned Morrissey. Blank faces. Who? You know, Morrissey. From The Smiths. The Smiths? I think I heard of them, but can't remember anything of theirs.

80s nostalgia is in right now, which is why Prince, Madonna, Duran Duran, Morrissey etc. now suddenly seem bigger than they have been in years. But as far as I can see, its appeal is largely limited to those of us who grew up in that decade. Unlike the 70s, which has appeal for kids who weren't even born at the time.



BigFatDog:

In reply to:

When you all go and buy the 30th DD's next month remind yourself of what Mozz said about the business and don't pass the buck blaming EMI for Bowie's greed


Well if you don't like it, don't buy it, simple as that. If Bowie didn't think it would sell then he wouldn't release it. And anyway, what's wrong with Bowie being a business?! He doesn't release albums for the good of his health....whereas of course Mozz does - he releases earth-shattering music to revolutionise the world - bollocks!



russellmael: I think I'd agree with Moz here.... I have studied Bowie far too long to not see the whole superficiallity of what he is/does.

However, it's a little rich coming from Moz that people are yawning at Bowie... have you heared You Are The Quarry?



russellmael: In the past Bowie hasn't cared about if an album sells other than when he had to make money (ie the 60's get a hit to validate his trade, the mid 70's to pay off massive debts to practically everyone, the early 80's to make his new label happy, the early + late 90's to prove he is still a valid creative force)

This situation changed year to year, but now the fact you say he would release it if it didn't make him money means he is only in it for the cash. Hence his art is now the worst it has ever been.



Cassiel:

In reply to:

you say he would release it if it didn't make him money


That's not quite what he said, even ignoring your typo, he said Bowie wouldn't release it if it wasn't going to sell which, I admit, is a fine distinction but an important one.

Re-releases like DD 30th come out because there is an audience for them; mostly sad, hardcore trainspotters but also new listeners who are experiencing this music for the first time. (and who would be much better off getting a mate to burn them a copy rather than wasting their parents hard earned cash on DD30th packaging and dubious bonus tracks but there you go.)

Your baldly, ignorant statement deriding the relationship between 'art' and 'commerce'; i.e. that if 'art' is made for money then it cannot be 'great' is, however, the kind've typical, blinkered nonsense I usually expect from people who've read 'Animal Farm' and think that that has something to do with International Socialism.



Persilot:

In reply to:

Then I mentioned Morrissey. Blank faces. Who? You know, Morrissey. From The Smiths. The Smiths? I think I heard of them, but can't remember anything of theirs.


Try coming to Manchester and asking that... I bet you'll find people who do remember. I know loads of Smith fans, most of them younger than me.



RabbitFighter:

In reply to:

I bet you'll find people who do remember


Weird thing is that my hometown seems to be populated with a horde of Smiths fans. And i'm talking about this arctic hellhole, not about Morrissey's old turf.



Diamond_Dave: If you look at the Bowie releases after the fantastic S+V Rykodisc series of the late 80's and early 90's the only half decent releases Bowie has had would be the BBC sessions and erm, not much else. :(

He keeps putting out these 30th editions with no real gems as he knows idiots (me included) will buy them as we want everything with his name on it. I have played the Ziggy and AS 30th bonus discs maybe 5 times all up if that.

What makes many of us frustrated is simply this. We know there are many unreleased and live gems in the Bowie vaults yet all we get a BS K-Tel mixes of songs that are passed off as rare gems.

I guess it is kind of like going to work and getting payed with Monopoly money instead of real money. We know the real stuff is there but do you think we know how to get Bowie to release this stuff?

All the Bowie sites have been talking of all the much needed bonus cuts, DVD's and live albums that are so desired. The really fucked up thing is that Bowie has been reading all this for years. He know what the fans want and what the fans hate. And the money hungry fellow gives us crap.

In the late 90's when EMI were planning the re-issues it was common knowledge that each record would contain a bonus disc or rare and unreleased gems. I forget the girl who was sorting it at the time but she left and then it all fell in a heap.

My fave Bowie re-issues of recent years were the mid 90's Trident pressings of Santa Monica and Rarestonebowie...how good were they considering Carlton Sandercock had limited sources?????

I spoke with Carlton at the time and they had plans to re-issue YA's as "The Ghouster" complete with original track listing and bonus cuts. What is needed is a devoted long time fan to be allowed to step in take charge of all the re-issue packages, not just the EMI geeks and Bowie himself. They only see it as a profit making exercise and nothing more.



hangontoyourself: So, what gems do we know of that he is holding back? What would you like to see on the Diamond Dogs re-release for example?
I suppose after Bowie being messed about so much by Mainman and all that he's tightened the purse-strings considerably. But I must say, Bowie looked much more involved in the MUSIC in his concerts than Paul McCartney or Charlie Watts did...I can't believe it's all about the money with him. He's got enough to stop making music if he wanted to.



BigFatDog: Although I'm sure he has some influence over things released, I'm pretty sure the big boys have him by the short and curlies.

I appreciate there is so much we haven't heard, but to a certain extent I'm pleased about that. All live stuff he has to offer isn't really gonna be anything we haven't heard before, and entices people to go and see him live because of audio being so readily available (Win MX, Kazaa etc.)

I think Bowie's got a nice balance going....



ziggfried: Oh, PLEASE. [re: Diamond_Dave]

In reply to:

Fact remains kids, Bowie has become exactly what Mozz states...A BUSINESS!!! When you all go and buy the 30th DD's next month remind yourself of what Mozz said about the business and don't pass the buck blaming EMI for Bowie's greed.


I take it you never saw the episode of John Safran's Music Jamboree in which the guy comes into the music store and says to John, "Do you have that Smiths song “Paint a Vulgar Picture” which cynically attacks bands endlessly releasing old material? I can't seem to find it on The Best of The Smiths Volume One, The Best of The Smiths Volume Two, The Very Best of The Smiths, and The Smiths: The Singles."

I bet if Morrissey was anywhere near Bowie's stature, he'd be re-releasing his old stuff with the same regularity.



ziggfriedModerator
(acolyte)
02/23/11 08:59 AM
Re: The Idiot (05/2004) new [re: ziggfried] Reply to this post

pablopicasso: If Bowie was such a business, I reckon we would have at least TM2, Buddah, Live and Stage easily available.



poorsoul: Apart from the fact that it's really only the dedicated fans who even know of their existence. The last two might be headed for rerelease this year but only in a frustratingly limited format, although that in itself begs the question of how greedy he really is. Surely if he wanted more money they would be released just as standard CDs.

I think the main proof of the argument lies in the fact of the selectivity of these reissues, like the 30th anniversary range, with their "rare" bonus tracks which, in the case of Ziggy, was manufactured specifcially for the release, and in most other cases are simply edits which anyone with the right software could make on their own. However, there is the counterclaim that he could just have easily released truly rare material on them to encourage more fans to buy them.

Perhaps that's the issue, how he treats his fans with regard to what they'd like to see released. Obviously he wants to make money from his music (what musician doesn't) but how interested is he in keeping the hardcore fans happy when he knows they'll pretty much buy anything anyway?



The_Omen: Can anyone be surprised that Morrissey is still a baby? He's be whining for 20 years. He's just an annoyance.



christiancode: nowadays video production is not as expensive as it used to be, and a tasteful concoction of live footage (of which there's plenty thanks to dublin, berlin, cologne and several area 2 filmings) wouldn't cost a thing and could get bowie back on the music channels.

rock singles (as opposed to dance singles) are not released to increase profits to my knowledge, they are mere promotional tools to help sell an album, as are videos. i thought the enhanced new killer star cd single was a good idea, although poorly executed (boring video, no audio feature of the song). so ONE well promoted single release before the actual album launch would be a good idea, anything else is just a waste of time and money. the closest (and cheapest) that bowie has gotten to promote reality on tv is the vitel spot.



Max_M: Oh yes, he's happy to whore out his name to everyone from Vitel to Audi to Calvin Klein these days. There's even that god awful mix of "Heroes" on the Wanadoo (Freeserve) advert.

And I hope Morrisey's singles success does show his record label and Bowie that it's possible. I get so tired of older celebs like George Michael, Bowie and Mick Hucknall using their age as an excuse if they have one flop single. It clearly is possible if they just get the right song and promote it a bit.



Diamond_Dave: I suspect you need to take off you Bowie glasses and see the DD 30th for what it is. I complete rip off for the fans. Just as the Ziggy and AS 30th releases and the re-issue of all his back catalugue....AGAIN....in 99 and the pathetic S+V box set from last year.

If half of you people stepped outside the "Bowie can do no wrong" circle you will see where Morrissey is coming from.



tonyinsf: So what if Bowie is a business? We all have our business, some are just better at it than others. Morrissey is also a business, he's just sick this week and could not make the late show he was suppose to be on all this week to flog his new album.



ziggfried:

In reply to:

I suspect you need to take off you Bowie glasses and see the DD 30th for what it is. I complete rip off for the fans. Just as the Ziggy and AS 30th releases and the re-issue of all his back catalugue....AGAIN....in 99 and the pathetic S+V box set from last year.


Where the hell are you coming from?? Bowie glasses?? I've bitched and moaned about the onslaught of useless Bowie re-releases more than anyone on these messageboards. I've stayed away from such CDs and in fact I'm heartily sick of talking about how useless this new DD release is...Maybe you've been away...?

In reply to:

If half of you people stepped outside the "Bowie can do no wrong" circle you will see where Morrissey is coming from.


What about all this "Bowie was only relevant by accident" crap?? Do you believe that?? Or can you even admit that perhaps your Morrissey sycophancy is equal to the Bowie-slavery displayed by others here??

I'm not saying that Bowie isn't a business. But I am saying that Morrissey tends to sound like a prat.

By the way, I assume you saw Bowie live recently, so can I ask you: were you yawning your head off?




ziggfriedModerator
(acolyte)
02/23/11 09:16 AM
Is Morrissey a racist? (05/2004) new [re: ziggfried] Reply to this post

Max_M: Some Morrisey quotes from the 80s:


In reply to:

"Reggae to me is the most racist music in the entire world. It's an absolute glorification of black supremacy." (Morrissey, September 1986)

"I detest Stevie Wonder." (Morrissey, September 1986)

"I think Diana Ross is awful." (Morrissey, September 1986)

"Janet Jackson, Whitney Houston, I think they're all vile in the extreme." (Morrissey, September 1986)

"Obviously to get on Top Of The Pops these days one had to be, by law, black. I think something political has happened and there has been a hefty pushing of all these black artists and all this discofied nonsense into the Top 40... In essence, this music doesn't say anything whatsoever." (Morrissey, September 1986)

"In Morrissey's mind, ('Bengali In Platforms') may be a profound statement about personal alienation, but unfortunately it would go down very well at a singalong after a National Front picnic." (Review, Q magazine, March 1988)

"I don't want to sound horrible or pessimistic, but I really don't think, for instance, black people and white people will ever really get on or like each other. The French will never like the English. The English will never like the French. The tunnel will collapse." (Morrissey, August 1992)"

"'I don't hate Pakistanis, but I dislike them immensely' Morrissey (1977)." (Johnny Rogan, The Severed Alliance)"


Lovely stuff. I really don't know much about Morrisey (or The Smiths) but I was curious to know if he had a racist past, as I'd heard rumours and to me, his new single seems to have pseudo-racist undertones. Maybe I'm reading too much in to it all, but I must say some of his comments are pushing it. Even his stuff about the black artists above... I mean, he may not like them, but "vile to the extreme" seems somewhat over the top?

Anyone know if he's ever been linked to any racist parties or groups? I really get the impression he's in to all that nazi stuff, but wont admit it, much like Gary Bushell. I'm sure he's gushed over skinheads and football hooligans in the past, too. I don't like him.



White Prism: Bowie's a NAZI !!!!!!!!!!!

In reply to:

"Oh [Hitler] was a terrible military strategist," said David, "the world's worst, but his overall objective was very good, and he was a marvellous morale booster. I mean, he was a perfect figurehead.


NAZI NAZI NAZI



hangontoyourself: couldn't this be just an objective comment about leaadership skills? Although what Hitler used his skills for was absolutely atrocious, and i would like to stress that I do NOT agree with that AT ALL, his leadership skills were excellent.



dentarthurdent:

In reply to:

"I detest Stevie Wonder." (Morrissey, September 1986)

"I think Diana Ross is awful." (Morrissey, September 1986)

"Janet Jackson, Whitney Houston, I think they're all vile in the extreme." (Morrissey, September 1986)


OMG! Morrissey not liking then crap factory black people racist!



SugarPlumFairy: *shrugs*

Morrissey just loathes 99% of the world. And I think in the first quote, the most important word is supremacy. He just really doesn't deal with anyone aspiring to supremacy. Except himself.

And he seems to have some kind of hooligan/skinhead fetish, yes.

But I don't think he's involved in anything nazism-related, not by far. And I don't consider him a racist. He's just very naive and campy and generally world-hating. He's damn easy to misunderstand.



zigbot: All the talk of detesting various Black artists' music is fine--you can hate Whitney Houston's work with a passion (as I do) and not be a racist (as I'm not). But his other--more general--comments that are not about musicians or pop stars, do seem, if not racist, at a minimum ignorant and scared.

It is so easy to blame "others" or "foreigners" for one's personal and a nation's national woes.

Although I liked The Smiths enough to own two "greatest hits" CDs, and I do like (but do not own) some of Morrissey's solo work, I find him intellectually and morally appalling. He's an idiot, no doubt about it.

And as for Bowie's "Nazi" statements, he has clarified and apologized for those, plus he was out of his gourd on cocaine when he made them. Bowie is no racist, and no Nazi. And, unlike Morrissey, he's not an idiot either.



Max_M: So you don't think it's offensive to basically say black and white people will never get on? Maybe he should just admit HE doesn't like black people, instead of trying to speak for everyone.



RabbitFighter: I' with Sugar here. The guy hates most of the humanity passionately and i'm the last person to blame him for that.
As for the quotes, you certainly have collected an impressive arsenal there but I see nothing wrong with these, keeping in mind that this is Morrissey we're talking about who's notorious when it comes to exaggerating.
First of all we can forget the quote from Q magazine in the first place since British press has been compelled to blame Mozz for god know's what ever since his debut in the ranks of Smiths.
You know, reggae music isn't solely about smoking ganja and having good time. There are artists out there that will make your average white power hc band look like a bunch of boyscouts. Ok, i'm exaggerating myself but not very much.
And when it comes to hating all those black artists I see why he hates their music. Mozz has a long history of despising music that has no other purpose than make people dance and have fun. Stevie Wonder, Diana Ross, Janet Jackson and Whitney Houston are all credible artists but you can't exactly say their music tackles important political issues, can you? Hell Mozz hated Wham fiercely and wrote Panic after British radio one (might be wrong channel) played some of that old George Michael magic after the Czhernobyl disaster. Naturally the press wanted to interpretate the line "hang the dj" as a racist comment.

In reply to:

"I don't want to sound horrible or pessimistic, but I really don't think, for instance, black people and white people will ever really get on or like each other. The French will never like the English. The English will never like the French. The tunnel will collapse."


Take a look at Israel...

Okay, I admit that the line about hating Pakistanis is gutwrenchingly horrible but he was 17 or 18 at the time! I've said far worse things myself just to piss off people.

"America / the land of the free, they said
and of opportunity / in a just and truthful way
but where the president
is never black, female or gay"

Does that sound awfully racist to you?
Granted the guy is an asshole who has some serious problems with anger management and he certainly likes to provoke press but calling him a racist, I don't think so.

Now let's go back to that guy who idolized Hitler...



EJSunday:

In reply to:

The French will never like the English. The English will never like the French.


And I will never like Morissey.



SugarPlumFairy:

In reply to:

So you don't think it's offensive to basically say black and white people will never get on?


What I think is that basically he's trying to say that people will never get along with other people. Like Wabbit said, take a look at Israel and think again.

Wabbit's post pretty much says it all.
It's easy to take interview snippets and random quotes from Morrissey and make them point this way or that. But like the lyric Wabbit quoted shows, you might as well gather snippets to prove the exact opposite.

I mean, come on. You're obviously not familiar with Morrissey if you even try to take him seriously. He takes his idea of publicity from Oscar Wilde. He's not even trying to be coherent or realistic. He goes for the exaggerated and ambiguous. And on top of that, he really does have a strong urge to just piss people off.



Soulman:

In reply to:

Granted the guy is an asshole


All the best artists are.



EJSunday:

In reply to:

All the best artists are.


Then he certainly is not an asshole. I'll go and ask Shyster for the right word for Morissey.



pablopicasso:

In reply to:

I'll go and ask Shyster for the right word for Morissey


Probably be "Cunt"!



Max_M:

In reply to:

I mean, come on. You're obviously not familiar with Morrissey if you even try to take him seriously. He takes his idea of publicity from Oscar Wilde.


No, I'm not too familiar with him. What happened with NME? They slated him for flying a Union Jack flag or something?



RabbitFighter: At some point during the late 80's / early 90's he wrapped himself with the flag in a concert, which was interpreted as a racist statement. This happened before Blair and co had made patriotism "cool" again in the public eye. If Bowie had used the Earthling cover at that time he would have been crucified too.



Beltene:

In reply to:

Is Morrisey a racist?


No. He's just gay.

We should kill off all gay men in self denial, they're the rotten fruit in our society.



JonnyManic:

In reply to:

"Reggae to me is the most racist music in the entire world. It's an absolute glorification of black supremacy." (Morrissey, September 1986)


If he's not racist he's a fucking retard. You choose!

In reply to:

"Obviously to get on Top Of The Pops these days one had to be, by law, black. I think something political has happened and there has been a hefty pushing of all these black artists and all this discofied nonsense into the Top 40... In essence, this music doesn't say anything whatsoever." (Morrissey, September 1986)


Racist.

In reply to:

"'I don't hate Pakistanis, but I dislike them immensely' Morrissey (1977)."


Racist.

You know why people think Morrissey is a fascist sympathiser? Because he acts like one. If he grew up and used his head for ten seconds, maybe he's think twice about it. I know it seems fashionable these days to paint black music as a reaction against white music but so what? Black people have been utterly oppressed for hundreds of years and still are today. Look at statistics for black distribution of wealth, or the black:white ratio in prisons. The idea that intitutionalised racism is just in the past is naive, ignorant and (guess what???) racist! Idiots like Morrissey should take a few moments to think about the effect their proto-fascist outburts can have.



ziggfried:

In reply to:

Anyone know if he's ever been linked to any racist parties or groups?


In the early 90s there was some big anti-Nazi benefit rock concert in the UK which was set up as a reaction to the National Front, or something...and I think Morrissey at the time said something about the NF having the right to air their political/racist views. I'm not sure if that constitutes a "link," but it's something to think about...Also, a lot of people view “Hang the DJ” as a racist song.

As for me, I know next to nothing about Morrissey, so I'm in no position to judge...But it seems to me like everything I read/hear about the man makes him seem like a relentlessly whinging prick.




Auntie Prism
(stardust savant)
02/23/11 12:12 PM
My other posts weren't so terrible new [re: ziggfried] Reply to this post

… but I think by the third thread, I expected discussions of Bowie's 'relevance' or Morrissey's 'racism' to be proxies for taking digs at whichever artist TWers considered the most annoying. I thought that some of the more 'challenged' posters would answer charges of Morrissey's racism by arguing that he hadn't released a decent album since Strangeways… (so he was obviously a racist) or that his racism was further evidence that 'Bowie was better' (i.e. I'm happy to call people on racism so long as I use the opportunity to promote Team Bowie as a purer brand). That didn't quite happen. Needless to say, a number of those quotations are very racist indeed, and my picking out an unrelated Bowie quotation was a slightly bizarre manoeuvre:

In reply to:

"Oh [Hitler] was a terrible military strategist," said David, "the world's worst, but his overall objective was very good, and he was a marvellous morale booster. I mean, he was a perfect figurehead.


Nonetheless, it's a very 'interesting' quotation, since it doesn't rely on the usual reasons for praising Hitler (i.e. that the trains ran on time and the iconography was pretty, a la Bryan Ferry). And, consequently, it confused Hangyourself:

In reply to:

hangontoyourself: couldn't this be just an objective comment about leaadership skills?


… which of course completely misreads the original, i.e. that Nazism's 'overall objective' was 'very good', and that Hitler was a 'terrible military' leader.

Rather than words comes the thought of high windows

KAdministrator
(thunder ocean)
02/23/11 01:46 PM
Mine on the other hand were... new [re: Auntie Prism] Reply to this post

In reply to:

which of course completely misreads the original, i.e. that Nazism's 'overall objective' was 'very good', and that Hitler was a 'terrible military' leader.


Which does then beg the question, what did Bowie consider to be Nazism's overall objective? Was he referring to the Jewish genocide or something different? Remembering that to a degree Nazism was less demonized during the 60s and 70s than it is today, it is possible he was referring to lifting the German nation out of the dirt or some other such concept.

Trololololololololololololololololo

Auntie Prism
(stardust savant)
02/23/11 03:48 PM
… about Kirk's ass? new [re: K] Reply to this post

Ruskie has a slightly larger excerpt of the interview in Quotes, but I don't think that it gives enough context. The entire interview is here. And, bizarrely enough, I'm going to exonerate David Bowie. Here's part of the interview:

In reply to:

"But I mean, it's what you do with the information [of UFO sightings]. We never used to tell anybody. It was beautifully dissipated when it got to the media. Media control is still based in the main on cultural manipulation. It's just so easy to do. When you set up one set of objectives toward the public and you've given them a certain definition for each code word, you hit them with the various code words and they're not going to believe anything if you don't want them to.

"That's how the Mayans were ruling South America thousands of years ago. That's what the media is. That's how it works. The Mayan calendar: they could get the crowds to go out and crucify somebody merely by giving them a certain definition, two or third words, primed in terms such that they could tell what day the people would react and how they would react… I sound like a subversive."

The reporter protested that he knew the media all too well and they weren't organised enough to carry off any kind of conspiracy or manipulation.

"It's seemingly disorganised," replied David. "It's not disorganised, because I've been in the media as well. I used to be a visualiser for an advertising agency, and I know exactly what - I mean the advertising agencies that sell us, they are killers, man. Those guys, they can sell anybody anything. And not just products. If you think agencies are just out to sell products, you're naive. They're powerful for other reasons. A lot of those agencies are responsible for a lot of things they shouldn't be responsible for. They're dealing with lives, those ad agencies."

Somehow to make a point about how humans are all manipulated, David bought up Hitler's Germany and said that Hitler, too, was controlled. He wasn't really the man in charge. The reporter asked how [that was ? ed. garbled gibberish here—AP] possible when Hitler's personal military mismanagement probably cost the Germans the war.

"Oh he was a terrible military strategist," said David, "the world's worst, but his overall objective was very good, and he was a marvellous morale booster. I mean, he was a perfect figurehead. And I'm sure that he was just part of it, that he was used… He was a nut and everybody knew he was a nut. They're not gonna let him run the country."

But what about losing the war, asked the reporter. Was that part of the plan too?

"No, that's not what I said," said David, exasperated. "I said I don't believe that he was the dictatorial, omnipotent leader that he's been taken for."

At this point, the flying saucer man broke in to try and help put things in perspective. "I think that you have to look at it as the same thing as your band," he said to David. "You'll sing, out of a zillion notes, you'll sing X amount. But you are the figurehead of the band. You're the main man. Hitler was the main man of his entourage."

David seemed somewhat taken aback at being put in the category as Hitler.

"Yes… well, I'm the leader, the apparent organiser and what-not, but the product which takes place is a contributed product, and responsibility lies with the whole lot, and the direction is on many shoulders."

"The responsibility lies in you," maintained the flying saucer man, sounding like a Nuremberg prosecutor.

"No it doesn't," David protested. "Once you get out there and start working actively, the responsibility's on everybody's shoulders.

"Yes, but with the public -" began the saucer man.

"Exactly!" interrupted David. "That's what I'm saying, man. It works like Hitler but the actual effect was produced by a number of people, all working their own strategies of where it was going to go."


Bowie is discussing dominant social forces and how they keep themselves in power with popular consent (i.e. hegemonic power). The consent relies on the illusion of free choice/free will. Yet if information is presented in a certain way, or if it uses loaded terms, it's more likely to generate a predictable response: it can be destructive and deceptive, and it has its own 'power' and ability to reproduce certain thoughts and actions.

Thus, Bowie finds analogies in advertising, (news) media, and the Mayan calendar (which is an example from Burroughs' The Soft Machine, I believe—certainly Burroughs, anyway). I don't know what ad agency Bowie used to work for, but let's say soap. I think we can agree that there are certain social pressures to wash regularly, smell good and be attractive in appearance. And the Bowie 'Shadow Love Quick & Clean' Lavender Facial Soap does a good job at all those things, because it claims to. And, if Bowie was a 'visualiser', he may well have chosen a sexy model for his ad (say, Kirk) who was being kissed by some hot member of the opposite sex (of Kirk's era … I dunno … WildWind?). I suppose the 'codewords' or 'code visuals' for soap ads involve a lot of white in the ad, and other soft pastel tones (implying cleanness and softness), and a hot boy/girlfriend (people who buy the Bowie Quick & Clean Soap always get hit on, of course)—all of which you are free to reject. But you will smell bad and no one will date you.

Enter Hitler, and I believe that Bowie was saying that Nazism's 'overall objective' was a similar kind of hegemonic power, i.e. that Nazi Germany wasn't the product of one man, and that it was impossible for a single person to enforce an all-encompassing regime on a society. Still, the power it did exert was, for a time, moderately stable and successful. It had a certain level of support which it enjoyed through employing certain seemingly 'neutral' codewords or ideas (such as racial purity, etc.), even though it certainly wasn't in people's interests to support it. It appears in Bowie's interview that someone raised an objection that Hitler was personally responsible for many of the (poor) military decisions, and the discussion becomes somewhat derailed. But there are several theories about how and why Hitler was able to come to power and stay there, and I don't think this one really works. I'm not sure that the power was consensual in the same way as Bowie's earlier examples. The changes were large enough that a considerable portion of people knew they were being screwed (and, as a consequence, the regime was probably quite unstable). There are different ways of getting into power, and Hitler's is particularly difficult and multifaceted.

Anyway, if that's what Bowie meant, he could've phrased it less ambiguously.

Rather than words comes the thought of high windows

ziggfriedModerator
(acolyte)
02/23/11 05:33 PM
Update... [re: Auntie Prism] Reply to this post

Interesting to have an overview of what's happened in the worlds of Bowie and Morrissey in the 7 years since these three threads...Morrissey went on to release two more studio albums, Ringleader of the Tormentors (2006, produced by Tony Visconti) and Years of Refusal (2009). Bowie, or course, hasn't released any more albums. Morrissey also got embroiled in a bit of a conflict with the NME re: his perceived anti-immigration tendencies, as well as courting controversy about the whole racism thing by calling the Chinese "a subspecies." Morrissey also performed Bowie's "Drive-In Saturday" in 2007 (including a live version as a B-side in 2008), and his words about Bowie here are more complimentary than his 2004 comments we discussed at length.

As for me, in the years since those three threads, I've listened to pretty much all of The Smiths' studio output, and some of their albums I quite like. But I haven't been especially impressed by the (admittedly few) pieces of Morrissey's solo work I've heard.



Auntie Prism
(stardust savant)
02/23/11 06:14 PM
A nation turns its back and gags new [re: ziggfried] Reply to this post

The NME dispute was interesting, since Morrissey's rebuttal described a conversation quite different from the original version. I'd be interested in reading a proper transcript of the whole thing. In either case, Morrissey appears to believe that the heart of England—the bit that's losing its identity—is frickin' Knightsbridge, which tells me he's lost his geographical bearings on normality.

To summarise my views on Moz throughout the various threads posted here: he's prone to over-exaggeration and mis-pitching his sarcastic remarks. A good number are simplistic, unfunny and childish—as are his personal disputes with Bowie. I think EuropeanCanon made the point above that, as a pop star, you have to watch your words a little. Not to the extent of a politician, but more so than the twit down the pub.

I did have a Morrissey avatar at one point (which I was hoping would be my answer to p2c's Jeff Tweedy), but I haven't really listened to him since he became a self-important, pompous bore. (Morrissey, I mean, not p2c. p2c's lovely!)

And finally, I just wanted to post this again:



Rather than words comes the thought of high windows

KAdministrator
(thunder ocean)
02/23/11 06:52 PM
Oh god I miss the man. new [re: Auntie Prism] Reply to this post

Since I have absolutely nothing of substance to add to either the fascinating subject of Bowie and Hitler not the equally fascinating subject of Bowie and Morrissey at this time of the night, I'm forced to limit this post to the absolute most important subject that this thread has touched on: Kirk.

In reply to:

… about Kirk's ass?


In addition to having an extremely attractive ass and being a looker in general, Kirk also had a very impressive cock. Which I had the pleasure of seeing via a private message. So you could perhaps say my posts were really all about Kirk's cock. Or mostly the hope of getting to see more of it. Sadly I did not save the picture at the time and the PM has been long since lost.

Trololololololololololololololololo


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