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ohramonaModerator
(acolyte)
07/22/07 01:38 AM
Exodus! Exodus!  

How difficult is it for yanks to move to Britain to stay & stay & stay? What are some of the best places for me to live? What does a school psychologist make over there? Please link me to some school districts so I can find out how much school psychologists make and how much they work. How about painters? Do you need good ones? What kind of money are we lookig at for the painter? Yes, we saw Sicko last night. & now my snoogums and me are going to move to Britain. Or Canada. Or France. Or Cuba. See ya there.



****THIS SPACE FOR RENT**** ****CALL NOW TO FIND OUT HOW**** ****1-866-366-2382****

guiltpuppy
(stardust savant)
07/22/07 09:03 AM
Re: Exodus! Exodus! new [re: ohramona]  

No need to panic. Sicko is a very striking film and conveys some compelling anecdotes in a powerful way, but it does not provide an accurate or even meaningful representation of the state of health care in the United States.

That said, US health care has major faults and I think socializing health care should be one of our top priorities. I just don't like the idea of using scare tactics to achieve this.


TW's Top Fag!

JonnyManic
(acolyte)
07/22/07 02:25 PM
Movement of Jah People new [re: guiltpuppy]  

In reply to:

does not provide an accurate or even meaningful representation of the state of health care in the United States ... That said, US health care has major faults and I think socializing health care should be one of our top priorities. I just don't like the idea of using scare tactics to achieve this.


Scare tactics? The film accurately and meaningfully portrays with no embelishment a number of cases of the terrible care that American people have gotten. It provides shocking statistics that show the US health service to be a racket for profiteering at the expense of people's lives. What is your tactic for achieving universal healthcare, electing a President who promises universal healthcare maybe? Like Bill Clinton did 15 years ago? That really didn't get very far.

If I had one criticism of the film (which I think is possibly Moore's best since Roger and Me) it is that he romanticises the quality of healthcare in the UK, which is under constant attack by New Labour who are trying to introduce more and more marketisation into the National Health Service. This has led to huge problems - such as the introduction of privatised cleaning services leading to the development of the superbug MRSA which one of my best friend's grandparents' is currently dying from in hospital. Ain't that a motherfucker?!

"The challenge of modernity is to live without illusions and without becoming disillusioned" - Antonio Gramsci


schizophrenic
(acolyte)
07/22/07 03:35 PM
Re: Movement of Jah People new [re: JonnyManic]  

He romanticised the hell out of health care in Canada too. I reccomend everyone who's seen the film to read this for balance. I don't agree with everything it's saying, but it does give you an alternate perspective on where we stand, health-care-wise.



power2charm
(cook)
07/24/07 07:58 PM
Jacques lied: Fish are slimy fuckers! new [re: schizophrenic]  

Schiz, the report you've linked to is the product of a right-wing think tank (yes, in answer to your internal question, that is an example of an oxymoron). Were you aware of that when you read it and then linked it here?

Of course, there are left wing tanks, and I'm kindly disposed towards their point of view, but that's because progressive thinkers actually thrive in the realms of reality, not bogus ideology.

It was therefore no surprise that the evidence marshalled in that report towards the predetermined conclusions was thin. The Fraser Institute's case seemed to amount to the assertion that Canadians spend a lot per capita on healthcare but only get a middling rank on quite a few health care measures in comparison with OECD nations employing a national health care service.

To your larger point that Moore's film deserves balance, I don't think Moore paints a deceiptfully rosy picture of UK or Canadian health care. This has been the primary criticism of the film. If the viewer will pay attention to the narration and the score during those segments of the film, it is obvious that Moore is having a bit of fun rubbing our noses in what you've got that we don't. Nowhere does he affirmatively assert that Canda or the UK do not have challenges in administering their systems. And those existing challenges do not compromise Moore's point, which is simply that those systems free their citizens from worry about money when they are sick. If you get sick in Canada, you don't wonder "How will I pay for this?" And you don't have a for-profit insurance company dropping your coverage after years of taking your premiums because, now that you are ill, you aren't a profitable insured anymore.

Moore doesn't HAVE to provide balance. No documentarian is obliged to do that, and few of them do. Peeps who want a fair and balanced docu can bugger off to a Jacques Cousteau exposé about sea anemones.

____
Kid, you've paid your dues...dues and dues. ~J. Tweedy

schizophrenic
(acolyte)
07/24/07 08:25 PM
oops. new [re: power2charm]  

In reply to:

Were you aware of that when you read it and then linked it here?


Actually, I wasn't. Thanks for pointing that out.

Wow, I feel really stupid now.

Edited by schizophrenic on 07/24/07 08:25 PM (server time).



guiltpuppy
(stardust savant)
07/24/07 08:55 PM
Re: Movement of Jah People new [re: JonnyManic]  

In reply to:

This has led to huge problems - such as the introduction of privatised cleaning services leading to the development of the superbug MRSA which one of my best friend's grandparents' is currently dying from in hospital. Ain't that a motherfucker?!



Okay, so say you make a documentary citing only cases like that when dealing with the UK, and contrast it to cited cases of health care working really effectively in the US. Throw in a handful of context-lacking statistics, and you have the UK equivalent of Sicko.

In reply to:

The film accurately and meaningfully portrays with no embelishment a number of cases of the terrible care that American people have gotten.



The mainstream media accurately and meaningfully portrays a number of cases of black-perpetrated violence, but selectively portraying these cases without realistic context is grossly misleading. Moore explained this concept quite well when he critiqued it in Bowling for Columbine, so I have a hard time believing he used it accidentally. You could cut together segments from Sicko and they'd fit quite nicely in that montage, right between the killer bees and the razors in halloween candy.

As for the statistical support, were we watching the same movie? They were sparse and disconnected. They demonstrated the assertion that other countries have better health care systems than us, but come nowhere near agreeing with the nightmare system the case studies are meant to depict.

And yes, I do believe that elections can be used to change laws. I'm not really sure what alternative you're even suggesting here? Maybe you would just like Michael Moore to cut together a new film called Everything's All Better, where he splices together unrelated footage to give the impression that all our problems have been solved. That seems good enough to pass for reality in your book.

TW's Top Fag!

guiltpuppy
(stardust savant)
07/24/07 09:07 PM
Re: Jacques lied: Fish are slimy fuckers! new [re: power2charm]  

In reply to:

Moore doesn't HAVE to provide balance. No documentarian is obliged to do that, and few of them do. Peeps who want a fair and balanced docu can bugger off to a Jacques Cousteau exposé about sea anemones.



I was a longtime defender of Moore on this count, especially since (to his credit) he sticks his face on screen so damn much you'd have to be an idiot not to notice that this is an opinion coming from a biased source who isn't pretending to be anything but a biased source (unfortunately, there are a lot of idiots on both sides who don't notice this)

But Moore is deliberately misleading people, to try to make them feel and act in a way that they would not if they were aware of the truth. I feel that there is something inherently wrong about propaganda, whether your reasons are noble or not.

TW's Top Fag!

JonnyManic
(acolyte)
07/31/07 06:51 AM
Puppy is Guilty of being a cock new [re: guiltpuppy]  

In reply to:

but come nowhere near agreeing with the nightmare system the case studies are meant to depict.


Wow, I'm really amazed by your insulation from reality. You think a country where 16% of people have no medical insurance, where you have the second highest infant mortality rate in the developed world (and hell, Latvia at number one barely counts as a "developed" country so I think you take the biscuit there), where the people who are supposed to provide healthcare use every trick and loophole that they can to get out of paying is not a nightmare? You cannot even penetrate to the logic of Moore's argument- that the the very existence of a profit making healthservice is going to be centred on the restriction of payments in order to maximise profits. You use this ludicrous straw man of a "nightmare system" to try and suggest that Moore was over reacting, but what's your idea of a nightmare situation? For 46 million Americans without insurance, any major illness is a nightmare system. I can think of at least one TW user who was unable to get treatment for an illness that was causing them a lot of problems. Does something need a more visceral and immediate impact to qualify as a 'nightmare' situation? The failing occupation of Iraq, the failed, racist "rescue operation" after Hurricane Katrina?

In reply to:

And yes, I do believe that elections can be used to change laws. I'm not really sure what alternative you're even suggesting here? Maybe you would just like Michael Moore to cut together a new film called Everything's All Better, where he splices together unrelated footage to give the impression that all our problems have been solved. That seems good enough to pass for reality in your book.


No, I don't believe that voting for some rich motherfucker is going to make a lick of difference - the only thing that will see a development of a decent healthcare plan in the US is a grassroots campaign that can unite activists in a broad coalition to win change. Michael Moore understands this which is why he's pushing for the formation of grassroots groups in response to the reaction the film is getting.

You see, 'progressive thinkers' as all those American's who still eschew their natural designation as 'left wingers' need to be active in building and fighting for what they believe in and what they want to see. I agree totally with what p2c said about Michael Moore not having to provide some balanced viewpoint or whatever other nonsense the establishment spouts in relation to documentaries. Moore doesn't make documentaries in the establishment sense he makes what people shouldn't be afraid to call propaganda, agitational political material that is geared towards radicalising and politicising the viewer.

So at the end of the day, whilst lethargic devils like yourself whinge about there not being a nightmare system in US healthcare, the people at the sharp end of the system, the families of people that the system has left to die and those who support them are using Michael Moore's film as a catalyst for building. But then, this is all academic since this response is more aimed at others than yourself. If you think a system that studies estimate causes 18,500 excess uninsured deaths per year in the 25-64 age category (Institute of Medicine. Insuring America's Health – Principles and Recommendations. The National Academies Press, 2004) is anything but a nightmare then you're already too far gone, so how about doing the decent thing and donating your organs to someone who's going to make some worthwhile use of them?

"The challenge of modernity is to live without illusions and without becoming disillusioned" - Antonio Gramsci


Strawman
(chameleon, comedian, corinthian and caricature)
07/31/07 08:45 AM
Too many freeloader's new [re: ohramona]  

In reply to:

Or France


Nay, not Franski, Kerri.

Socialised medicine fails to offer the best and latest anti-cancer drugs to its citizens and it's also bankrupted the country and lead to mass unemployment - all reasons why the higher percentage of froggies have shown that they've had enough by voting for Sarkozy.

Spitting and swallowing are both so passe. I like to snort it back and shoot it through one nostril at my lover's face. ~ JarethsGirl



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