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NomDePlume
(kook)
10/29/05 07:44 AM
Re: Anarchy in the TW new [re: Shelle]  

In reply to:

the answer in this case is simple: EJ can't counter my arguments so he prefers to dismiss them


In a nutshell. Standard TW behaviour of the self-proclaimed elite. As soon as you've started to lose the argument, pull out the "You're an alter" card and refuse to continue.

It's interesting that none of the serious questions you raised about how moderators are appointed (or might be removed), or what justifications there are for moderating some posts but not others, have been answered. Instead, they just focus on your insults: "Oh, that mean bitch just called lovely EJ a Nazi!"

That's the TW way I guess. And then they wonder why there are so many insults flying around. Why? Because they ignore the people who aren't part of their clique otherwise.

""Looking for love, not sex" -- the tagline of many a troll who doesn't believe they are worthy or capable of sex in its own right, but god, the thought of carrying that sort of middling self-esteem all the way to 36 is disturbing."

diamondogz74
(freecloud)
10/29/05 07:55 AM
Re: Anarchy in the TW new [re: Arlequino]  

In reply to:

Didn't you know? People still buy tickets to see Jim Davidson live...


And sadly that is much more insulting than Shelles jew gassing joke.

I think people take things to seriously here, we all know a joke that will offend and cause board outrage! It's all to easy, I tend now to read between the lines and find 99.9% of the humour very funny.

I just cannot believe the pious nature of some members, this is an internet fan site with a difference, except that or be damned.

You'll never change the place and that's what attracts me so heavily.


London Bye Ta-Ta...

Arlequino
(cracked actor)
10/29/05 08:39 AM
Re: Anarchy in the TW new [re: NomDePlume]  

In reply to:

Shelle's not the first person to use the N word. She's not even the first to link it specificly to our once loved mod. White Prism and Monkeyboy were both doing it before her. Why didn't you start shrieking shrilly about it being heinously offensive when they did it?


Arguing on a purely semantic level, you'll notice that my argument wasn't actually with the term 'Nazi' - though I then used that as an amplifier - but with the term "Jew gassing arsehole".

But something tells me this isn't actually an argument about semantics.

So - I've got to admit to a little bit of underinformed argument on my part here. I'm mostly unaware of the White Prism factor here. In fact, the only time I ever actually became aware of WP was in the musical discussion threads from a while back. That's not to say I didn't notice him because I didn't like or get him, or whatever. It's just that I truly wasn't aware of his presence. So, if WP is indeed guilty of throwing the term 'nazi' around, then it's not something I'd consider myself to have tolerated in any sense. I was just blissfully unaware.

As to the point on Monkeyboy, I think you're probably the one 'barging in half cocked'. I got into a bit of an argument with said Monkeyboy over this exact issue - and this same moderator - a few months back. The difference is, Monkeyboy didn't jump out with calls of "Jew gassing arsehole" or whatever. He began with a complaint about Free Speech, and moved from there on to insults. Thing is, Monkeyboy then sorted the argument in a sensible way. Not even just the insults, but the entire Free Speech debate. Where has Shelle even attempted to enter into serious debates?

Same goes for Twister. Hated the guy at first, but he doesn't just bandy insults around for the sheer hell of it. And when he does, they're usually less downright unpleasant. When they haven't been, I've had my say once or twice.

In reply to:

why do you admire it when your friends do it


Sorry, NomDePlume. You're an intelligent guy, but if you'd bothered to do even the most basic research you'd know I'm not into admiration for insults about Nazism, Holocaust or any such thing. Physical insults, attacks on posting style and other such stuff is well within the bounds. But not stuff like that.

In reply to:

Hey, you're not exactly Mr. Chuckles now are you?


Indeed. Never claimed to be, though. My posting strengths are listing threads and talking about drinking. Shit, if I could create something half as funny as Persilot, half as intelligent as Dara or half as knowledgeable as Twister I'd consider myself a good poster. As it is, I don't. But I also know when somebody else is pretty unentertaining.

And sure - I am a hypocrite. But tell me one single poster here who couldn't be accused of that. I think you'd struggle. I know I would.

Anyway - you make some interesting points, and being opinions, they're at least as valid as those that I've put forth. But I'm not going to change my mind about what Shelle said simply because I'm the only person that finds it insulting enough to make mention of.

later,
Chris...

I could stay if you asked me,
So for God's sake don't ask me to stay



NomDePlume
(kook)
10/29/05 09:23 AM
Re: Anarchy in the TW new [re: Arlequino]  

In reply to:

Where has Shelle even attempted to enter into serious debates?


Look back up this thread to the first exchange between Shelle and EJ. Twister summed it up perfectly as:

Shelle: This action may be mis-read as smug moderator wankery.
EJ: Well, that's not what it is. *I* know what it is. But I'm not going to share the information. Because I'm a smug, moderator, wanker.

Also, if you look at the "Replace Sysiyo" thread, you'll see that Shelle entered the discussion, admittedly in her usual humorous style, but nevertheless with a serious point (that any new mod should be a woman to redress the gender imbalance), and specific (and I thought good) suggestions of who might make good mods.

You, on the other hand, just barged into the middle of this discussion with apparently nothing more to say than "It's wrong to call people Nazis".

Also, if you took your head out of your music threads for a minute and looked at Shelle's posts in the Coffee Shop, you'll find examples where she's made serious points in political discussions (about Miers most recently), sociology, sports, and racism. I'd link to them but I couldn't really be bothered since it's your ignorance, not mine. But the posts are there, believe me.

In reply to:

Same goes for Twister. Hated the guy at first


Maybe you just need to study Shelle's track record a bit more. Maybe you'll grow to love her as you have done Twister and Monkeyboy.

Anyway, thanks for the serious response, and for giving serious consideration to the points I made.

""Looking for love, not sex" -- the tagline of many a troll who doesn't believe they are worthy or capable of sex in its own right, but god, the thought of carrying that sort of middling self-esteem all the way to 36 is disturbing."

Arlequino
(cracked actor)
10/29/05 09:39 AM
Re: Anarchy in the TW new [re: NomDePlume]  

Perhaps it's a little unecessary for me to continue this in the forum, but I still feel a little misconstrued.

In reply to:

You, on the other hand, just barged into the middle of this discussion with apparently nothing more to say than "It's wrong to call people Nazis"


Not quite. Admittedly, said argument did form a large part of my post, and it was probably the crux of what I had to say. Nevertheless, I was also making a point about my thoughts on the moderation of this forum. Previously, I've said that I don't think we need new mods. In this thread, however, I did state that I can see sensibilities in the call for new - or simply more - moderators. I don't really think we need them, and it's not an argument I subscribe to, but the people that do put forward the claims for it make some valid points.

I admit, I probably wouldn't have entered the discussion if it weren't for the comments made about EJ, but it's not because I don't have an opinion. It's simply because I've expressed it enough times previously for it not to be worth repeating.

In reply to:

Shelle's Coffee Shop Posts


Some interesting posts she makes there, I agree. Unfortunately for me, despite the fact that I have a general interest in most topical - and utterly nonsensical - affairs, I'm yet to find more than about half a dozen posts of hers that I've really though 'wow...that was good'. That doesn't make her a bad poster and equally, it doesn't make me an ignorant one; it just means that our styles aren't compatible. That's not why I'm getting onto her here, though. The point here is that there are good ways to present an argument, and not so good ones. EJ's probably wasn't so good, mine hasn't been so good, and Shelle's was downright terrible.

Perhaps you're right, though. I may grow to like Shelle, enjoy her posts and be able to contribute to her discussions in such a way that doesn't make it appear as if I'm being argumentative for the sheer hell of it.

later,
Chris...

I could stay if you asked me,
So for God's sake don't ask me to stay



Marquis
(acolyte)
10/29/05 11:03 AM
I wanna get lost in your rock and roll new [re: NomDePlume]  

In reply to:

It's interesting that none of the serious questions you raised about how moderators are appointed (or might be removed), or what justifications there are for moderating some posts but not others, have been answered.


Actually, it's not really all that interesting. Like it or not, posters under suspicion of being alter egos are never, ever, ever going to be treated with the same regard as certifiably "real" posters. That doesn't mean that a Nobel laureate like yourself might not have some good points, but as long as that profile is hidden, a good chunk of the population is going to take everything you say with a whole salt flat, when they don't outright ignore you.

I can see how this double standard, especially employed by a moderator, could strike some as unfair. But each of us decides how seriously to take the other posters here - if it were Giulia or DeClaude starting threads about moderator change and EJ ignored them, I doubt there'd be this much fracas. And why not?

Hop fences, jump over benches
When you see me coming get the fuck out the entrance


Shelle
(electric tomato)
10/29/05 12:35 PM
It's good to talk new [re: Arlequino]  

You may not be liking me much, but I'm at last warming to you a little. You have shown yourself willing to at least discuss the serious points raised, rather than retreating behind the "You're an alter" wall of smugness.

So I'll attempt to explain my position a bit better. I'll also try to refrain from calling you an afternoon-tea sippin' gnomefucker, or any other such racist epithets.

My original interest in this whole moderator debate came down to two basic points: I support Freedom of Speech, and if there must be moderators, I think we could have better ones. Given that I haven't been here very long I lack the background to make long detailed posts on who would make a good moderator. But I still have an opinion, and thought it worth expressing.

On the Freedom Of Speech issue, Monkeyboy made all the points I would make, probably better than I could. So my initial posts were just pretty much "what he said". I had nothing to add to the substantive argument. Similarly, when EJ offered a slippery slope defense of why he was deleting very mild stuff, Twister and others beat me to the punch with well reasoned dismissals of this. So, not much for me to say other than "Yah, that's a bullshit argument". I'd have been happy to leave it at that if EJ hadn't decided he wasn't going to answer the points made (by others, not by me) because he thought I was Twister, or Whitre Prism, or whoever.

On my general posting style, I don't come here to prove how clever I am, or to discuss at great length my favorite albums. I come to have a bit of fun and chat. I prefer when that takes the form of friendly banter, as it generally did in my first few weeks here. Things changed when a select few who clearly didn't like my posting style to begin with started this whole "She's an alter" shit. That, apparently, is TW code for "Don't talk to her". Then the insults started flowing. Well, if you insult me, I insult back. And I see no reason why I need to stick to your standards of what's PC or not. My attitude is, if you dish it out, you better be prepared to take it back.

I can have fun either way. Either by chatting and bantering with the people who get my posting style, or by insulting those who insist on insulting it. Like NomDePlume said, I never start a fight.

I know my humor offends a lot of people. So be it. The world would be a dull place if we never did anything that might offend someone somewhere. As I see it, my only real responsibility here is to have fun. And if there are others who have fun with me, so much the better.

In reply to:

The point here is that there are good ways to present an argument, and not so good ones. EJ's probably wasn't so good, mine hasn't been so good, and Shelle's was downright terrible.



Maybe. In my defense, I only started insulting EJ personally once he made it clear he wasn't going to continue any argument with me because he thought I was an alter. Even a bad argument is better than none at all.

Shock tactics can be very effective when one side retreats to smug superiority and refuses to continue the argument seriously. Won't argue with me? Cover your ears and go "La la la, I'm not listening"? OK, let's see how thick skinned you are when I start throwing insults your way. If you can take it, fine. But you better be prepared to take it for as long as you refuse to treat me seriously.

I know it's obnoxious, but I reserve the right to be obnoxious to people who are obnoxious to me first.

As to why I didn't PM EJ and try and sort it out privately, well, I didn't see why I should. He made the accusation in public, from a position of accepted authority. As I see it, the onus is on him to either prove his allegation, or withdraw it. If he were someone I had interacted with a lot, like, say, Pablo, I might have cut him some slack. But EJ is someone I never even noticed until he started deleting other people's posts.

There seems to be an assumption that somehow a relatively new person like me should toe the line and behave to higher standards than well established posters, and even moderators. I suggest it would be better the other way round. Maybe if you cut the newbies more slack, they might calm down once they got used to the place, and more of them might stay. Maybe if more of you gave a good example of "civilized" behavior (and this is a general you: you in particular are setting a good example), newbies might settle down faster.

Maybe though, that's exactly what you don't want. New people breaking up your rather cosy Old Boys Club here.

I like dogs. You always know what a dog is thinking. It has four moods. Happy, sad, cross and concentrating. Also, dogs are faithful and they do not tell lies because they cannot talk.


Shelle
(electric tomato)
10/29/05 12:44 PM
Re: I wanna get lost in your rock and roll new [re: Marquis]  

In reply to:

if it were Giulia or DeClaude starting threads about moderator change and EJ ignored them, I doubt there'd be this much fracas. And why not?



Fair point but I didn't start any such thread, I was merely a minor contributor until EJ decided to shove me center stage. I'm not sure why he did that, but I suspect it was because he was losing the Freedom of Speech argument to Twister, Monkeyboy and others, and saw the "She's an alter" thing as a diversionary tactic. Perhaps I should have kept my mouth shut. Or perhaps not: at least EJ got exposed as someone who'd rather make baseless accusations and insinuations than admit he might have made a small mistake.

The other point is that it seems to me that every new person who makes a big splash gets this "You're an alter" thing thrown at them. In the short time I've been here, I've seen B mardle, JamieSim, and FastChanges get it.

I like dogs. You always know what a dog is thinking. It has four moods. Happy, sad, cross and concentrating. Also, dogs are faithful and they do not tell lies because they cannot talk.


Marquis
(acolyte)
10/29/05 02:19 PM
Who can it be now? new [re: Shelle]  

In reply to:

The other point is that it seems to me that every new person who makes a big splash gets this "You're an alter" thing thrown at them. In the short time I've been here, I've seen B mardle, JamieSim, and FastChanges get it.


It's true, and quite unfortunate for those non-alter newbies who get accused of it, but that's the prevalent environment of TW these days.

At the risk of sounding a little too Pablo, it's not really a joke I find to be that hilarious/clever/what have you, but such is life on the internet. Some people clearly prefer an atmosphere of paranoia to one of transparency, and they're well within their rights to do what they like, so I'm not trying to start beef about it.

Hop fences, jump over benches
When you see me coming get the fuck out the entrance


diamondogz74
(freecloud)
10/29/05 02:35 PM
Re: Who can it be now? [re: Marquis]  

In reply to:

Some people clearly prefer an atmosphere of paranoia to one of transparency


Yours is most definately the former yes?

What is the point of being transparent, I genuinely do not know.


London Bye Ta-Ta...


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