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CDS
(grinning soul)
06/13/02 00:10 AM
1. Outside would be absolutely perfect...  

...if the tracklist looked something like this.

1) Leon Takes Us Outside (1:25)
2) Outside (4:04)
3) The Heart's Filthy Lesson (4:57)
4) Hallo Spaceboy (5:14)
5) The Motel (6:49)
6) I Have Not Been To Oxford Town (3:47)
7) No Control (4:33)
8) Voyeur of Utter Destruction (As Beauty) (4:21)
9) We Prick You (4:33)
10) I'm Deranged (4:31)
11) Thru These Architect's Eyes (4:22)
12) Strangers When We Meet (5:07)

The god-awful segues and the set-in-stone storytelling kill the album.



SugarPlumFairy
(cracked actor)
06/13/02 04:29 AM
Re: 1. Outside would be absolutely perfect... new [re: CDS]  

Partially, you're right...obviously removing the segues would make Outside easier to listen to. However, I somehow like the segues. I know some of them by heart - they're like a weird sort of poetry. Carefully constructed, full of hidden, mysterious meaning, in my opinion. I never skip those tracks.

The question is, would removing the segues destroy the concept of 1.Outside?

No matter how tempted I am with the prospect of unlimited power, I will not consume any energy field bigger than my head.
Peter Anspach's Evil Overlord list

Edited by SugarPlumFairy on 06/13/02 04:30 AM (server time).



Sysiyo
(acolyte)
06/13/02 05:35 AM
Re: 1. Outside would be absolutely perfect... new [re: SugarPlumFairy]  

In reply to:

The question is, would removing the segues destroy the concept of 1.Outside?


Yes, it would. I've been thinking about this a lot lately, thanks to Heathen (IMO it sounds and looks a lot like 19th century Outside )... Heathen is a very hard album to get into, much harder than outside. After listening to Heathen a week straight, I'm starting to grasp it... and every other Bowie album souind commercial. Should the segues be removed, Outside would be reduced to a mere commercial shadow of itself. Outside needs the mysterious meaning, as you said.

I dread to think of when the wind blows

davbo92
(absolute beginner )
06/13/02 05:51 AM
Re: 1. Outside would be absolutely perfect... new [re: Sysiyo]  

Do you also find that "strangers when we meet" completely clashes with the rest of the albums mood? It doesn't fit in with the atmosphere which is so skillfully created by the rest of the albums structure, IMO. I get the impression that it was only added for commercial, extra-artristic reasons.



ErichJohann
(crash course raver)
06/13/02 06:38 AM
Outside, again new [re: davbo92]  

In reply to:

Do you also find that "strangers when we meet" completely clashes with the rest of the albums mood?


Course it does: It wasn' t written for it. Check "Buddha Of Suburbia" for more details.

And I want to believe
In the madness that calls 'now'


shambuei
(electric tomato)
06/13/02 07:08 AM
"how can you hate bowie so much" new [re: CDS]  

oh here we go again

why the fuck does outside has to last as long as any other bowie album? is there a fucking standard of a GOOD length for an album?
is the only way getting into an album is listening to it as a whole each time and saying "wow" after each listen?
outside is so good ALSO because it's so long, i think
an album with sound like that has to be as long as eternity
it is an artistical matter
segues are great, they are just another kind of bowie tracks. you don't have to compare "nathan adler part 1" to "aladdin sane" or "rock'n'roll suicide".
and i love how "strangers when we meet" sounds at the end of an album. it is such a perfect outro. it gives an album a kind of theatrical feeling, like if all those characters came on stage at the end for a final number.
(and the song itself got really better when rerecorded, sorry, buddha fans)
if the last track on the outside would be another gloomy song it would make an album a least of a cult for me.
it would just be a great "scary" album and that's it
but the way outside is
it is a fucking fucking fucking masterpiece
it is the best thing to ever exist on this planet
it's better than you all, people on this board, taken together and multiplied
oh

////////////////////////////////sad

Sedna
(cracked actor)
06/13/02 09:03 AM
Re: 1. Outside would be absolutely perfect... new [re: davbo92]  

i agree that strangers when we meet doesnt fit in with the rest of outside-, however after the dark mysterius songs of outside its extremely refreshing hearing strangers when we meet in a way that it does fit in.

Oranges can fuck off!

Jerome
(wild eyed peoploid)
06/13/02 10:18 AM
Re: 1. Outside would be absolutely perfect... new [re: Sedna]  

I wouldn't change anything on Outside. Every second is great. I'm with name is great. Wishful beginnings is great.



Artiste
(absolute beginner )
06/13/02 11:22 AM
Re: 1. Outside would be absolutely perfect... new [re: davbo92]  

No. Strangers When Meet, although originally from Buddha Of Suburbia, is a state-of-the-art ending of this so-called hyper-cycle (and my fave db track). Watch the video.



schizophrenic
(wild eyed peoploid)
06/13/02 11:31 AM
Re: "how can you hate bowie so much" new [re: shambuei]  

"it is a fucking fucking fucking masterpiece
it is the best thing to ever exist on this planet
it's better than you all, people on this board, taken together and multiplied"

uhhh...that's nice Shambuel.

I actually think that I Am With Name and I Have Not Been To Oxford Town should have been taken off the album. And (at the risk of getting flamed) I think DB should of thought of new lyrics for The Motel.



nucular!

AdamModerator
(crash course raver)
06/13/02 11:47 AM
Re: 1. Outside would be absolutely perfect... new [re: CDS]  

The only way to improve 1.Outside is to extend the track listing, not prune it.

I would keep all existing tracks, then add an extra CD containing the superior "I'm Afraid of Americans (Outside Version), "Get Real", "Nothing to Be Desired" and the long operatic piece that Bowie dropped before release.

I find much greater inconsistancy among Bowie's other albums, including many of his 70s works.

Please sign the petition: get.to/bowiedownunder

th0mas
(kook)
06/13/02 01:01 PM
Re: 1. Outside would be absolutely perfect... new [re: Adam]  

yep, a few days ago i thought about a possible outside sequel and came to the conclusion that it would be (perhaps) the best solution to release some double album instead of 2. contamination, which won't ever appear since the dark end-of-the-millenium mood disappeared, and include on the first cd some happy mooded tracks (contamination would still be a good name...) and on the second cd (which could be 3. apocalypse or something like that) some electronic instrumentals from the remaining outside session material (with reeves), which is more or less a bonus - all the outside/low/heroes haters could throw away if they don't like it. the cycle would be closed, everyone would be happy...

but to get back to the subject: adam, what is the outside version of IAOA? and wasn't get real supposed to be on some earlier album? its on some outside single but considering the style it could have been as well composed for a (pre)tin machine album.
i would add the hello spaceboy mix as well and put wishful beginnings back on the first cd. oh, and i can't would be a cool track as well, on the second cd.

In reply to:

I find much greater inconsistancy among Bowie's other albums, including many of his 70s works.


yepp, it's a concept album which sounds like a concept album, just like diamond dogs.

(hmmpf, this posting doesn't look like an concept-posting at all :-P)

esst
mehr
obst!

Alys
(kook)
06/13/02 02:52 PM
Re: 1. Outside would be absolutely perfect... new [re: Adam]  

I would have to agree with you Adam! (and not just because I met you recently LOL!) I am curious though, what version of IAOA was the "Outside version"?? I seem to recall only Showgirls, then Earthling versions (and of course trent reznor's...)
And was this operatic piece available anywhere?
I wish that Bowie would put out a collection of all the tracks for Outside that he made but never released. (or alternately 2. Contamination... but that is less of a chance than the proverbial snowball in hell )


"Place thy foot upon thy slave,
Oh thou, half of hell, half of dreams;
Among the shadows, dark and grave,
Thy extended body gleams."

-Sacher-Masoch, from Venus in Furs

Sysiyo
(acolyte)
06/14/02 05:34 AM
Re: 1. Outside would be absolutely perfect... new [re: Sedna]  

In reply to:

however after the dark mysterius songs of outside its extremely refreshing hearing strangers when we meet in a way that it does fit in.


My thoughts excactly. The purpose of this track IMO is to give the album a more hopeful ending, and it does work terribly well. Should Outside end with a more fitting song, the result would be a truly depressing album (similar to "Heroes" ending with Neuköln rather than The Secret Lives Of Arabia, although I realise that most people would prefer it that way).

I dread to think of when the wind blows

CDS
(grinning soul)
06/14/02 11:21 PM
Re: 1. Outside would be absolutely perfect... new [re: Sysiyo]  

I always thought Strangers When We Meet was deceptively optimistic - listening to the lyrics, they're quite grim. It's the killer saying "I got away, haha".



lowlodgerheroes
(cracked actor)
06/15/02 07:16 AM
Re: 1. Outside would be absolutely perfect... new [re: CDS]  

That is an excellent point CDS. I never looked at it quite like that.

All is full of love

trendy rechauffe
(stardust savant)
06/15/02 08:11 AM
Re: 1. Outside would be absolutely perfect... new [re: Adam]  

In reply to:

The only way to improve 1.Outside is to extend the track listing, not prune it.


I agree!

I've got the Japanese pressing with 20 tracks which is much better than only having 19 tracks. However I find Get real is a strange song (a bit too poppy) to have at the end of the album and would have liked to have had it as track 19 and Strangers when we meet ending the album.

I'd like to see it expanded when it eventually gets released on DVD-A

bye tr

trendy's trainpage is at http://www.geocities.com/trendy_rechauffe

"No peachy prayers, no trendy rechauffé
I'm with you so I can't go on"

G.B.A.

AdamModerator
(crash course raver)
06/15/02 07:11 PM
Re: 1. Outside would be absolutely perfect... new [re: Alys]  

Thomas and Alys,

The Showgirls version is actually a bonafide outtake from the 1.Outside sessions - hence the Eno co-writing credit. Likewise, Eno produced it and I figure that is partially why it sounds better to me.

Both "Get Real" and "Nothing to Be Desired" were B-sides of the Outside singles.

Based on the lyrical evidence, there is also an interesting theory that "Telling Lies" was written for 2.Contamination

Please sign the petition: get.to/bowiedownunder

ukheir
(grinning soul)
06/21/02 07:05 AM
Re: 1. Outside would be absolutely perfect... new [re: CDS]  

Never change a winning team

1. Outside is perfect. I even dig I am with name and the little segues. ("We could have great conversations..."). At first I also thought that the 1993 track Strangers When we meet" is a bit off soundvise. If I listen to the album doing something else, I sort of wake up when that song starts. It's like "what the hell, who changed CD?". But it's just perfect. And we'll never know if the killer really got away, now that Bowie has lost interest in the project. Bummer!

-------------------------------------------**
The European Cannon is here

thomaswood
(mortal with potential)
06/23/02 11:37 PM
Re: 1. Outside would be absolutely perfect... new [re: Adam]  

Outside needs pruning big time. I can't go track by track and recall song segues without my lost copy in front of me but I'm still comfortable with this assesment. Which 70's albums needed editing more? I mean i prefer Young Americans to Outside. And i hate the booklet also. Hallo Spaceboy and Strangers are near worthless by Bowie standards. I would bet money that Bowie in retrospect winces at alot of it (not Eno's proudest moment either). He's better than Outside. Some of it is very good, don't get me wrong but c'mon Diamond Dogs,Earthling, Scary Monsters (and yes, Heathen) are better. The concept is lame and thank god this wasn't followed up with more art crimes like an Outside 2.



SisterRay
(absolute beginner )
06/25/02 06:16 PM
Re: "how can you hate bowie so much" new [re: shambuei]  

I agree with everything you said, Outside was the first bowie album I owned. It is perfect the way it is because thats the way Bowie made it!

I'm the twisted name on Garbos eyes
Living proof of Churchills lies
i'm Destiny

SisterRay
(absolute beginner )
06/25/02 06:18 PM
Re: "how can you hate bowie so much" new [re: schizophrenic]  

What the hell! I Have not been to Oxford town is a great funky tune and is key to the story!!!

I'm the twisted name on Garbos eyes
Living proof of Churchills lies
i'm Destiny

Artiste
(mortal with potential)
06/26/02 08:55 AM
Re: "how can you hate bowie so much" new [re: schizophrenic]  

'I Am With Name' is a great song for dancing. Or a mime act.



twister
(acolyte)
06/30/02 09:16 AM
Improvement Is Always Possible new [re: shambuei]  

In reply to:

why the fuck does outside has to last as long as any other bowie album? is there a fucking standard of a GOOD length for an album?


Alright - calm down, tiger! I think once you start adding songs to an album that don't actually add anything to the album, they become superfluous. And I think that an album is better when it doesn't carry superfluous material. Basically if you have an album with some excellent moments, and a lot of stuff that's 'pretty good' the more 'pretty good' material you remove the more uniformly excellent the album will be, and therefore better. There's remarkably few albums I think can sustain being over 70 minutes long without ideally needing some pruning, and 1. Outside is no exception, imo.

Personally, I think the ideal take from the material given is:

1. The Hearts Filthy Lesson
2. Segue - Baby Grace (A Horrid Cassette)
3. Hallo Spaceboy
4. The Motel
5. I Have Not Been To Oxford Town
6. The Voyeur Of Utter Destruction (As Beauty)
7. Wishful Beginnings
8. We Prick You
9. Thru' These Architects Eyes
10. Strangers When We Meet

Which runs closer to 46 minutes. Which isn't to say I think the remainder of the album is horrible - I don't think any of it is - but I don't think sitting listening to Bowie moan "now, not tomorrow" for four straight minutes adds a great deal to the album.

Still, 1. Outside as it stands is easily the best album he's done in the last twenty years, I reckon - though it still doesn't come close to the heights of his 'classic' years.

I could be a genius if I just put my mind to it.

Sysiyo
(acolyte)
07/01/02 09:39 AM
Re: Improvement Is Always Possible new [re: twister]  

What? No Segue - Algeria Touchshriek? What is this?

The idea of pruning 1. Outside is terrible. It is one of the few albums that really work as such long albums, and by that criteria alone it should be left as it is.

Neither should it be expanded with new tracks. Allthough I do not know for certain, I would presume that Bowie felt that the tracks inmcluded were the cream of the session, and also acceptable enough for main-stream audience. The other tracks should be given a separate release much like a bootleg (a bootleg like this probably exists, right?).

I dread to think of when the wind blows

UncleFloyd
(absolute beginner )
07/03/02 03:18 PM
Re: "how can you hate bowie so much" new [re: schizophrenic]  


I detest the album version of Hallo Spaceboy. Sorry. The Pet Shop Boys made the song actually LISTENABLE, I think.



blondon
(absolute beginner )
07/03/02 07:35 PM
Re: 1. Outside would be absolutely perfect... new [re: CDS]  

Here is my "perfect" version of 1.Outside:

Leon Takes Us Outside (1:25)
Outside (4:04)
The Heart's Filthy Lesson (4:57)
A Small Plot of Land (6:34)
Hallo Spaceboy (5:14)
The Motel (6:49) (eliminating or changing the part of the song where David oversings)
I Have Not Been To Oxford Town (3:47)
No Control (4:33)
Voyeur of Utter Destruction (As Beauty) (4:21)
Wishful Beginnings (5:08)
We Prick You (4:33)
Thru These Architect's Eyes (4:22)
I'm Deranged (4:31)

Essentially, I have eliminated the segues; I have also eliminated the last song that everyone (except me) likes--Strangers When We Meet. That song (i) is already on Buddha of Suburbia (ii) sounds too much like a try for a hit single (iii) does not fit the rest of the album (iv) sounds too much like Heroes and (v) I just don't like it!

Also, I'm Deranged, one of the strongest cuts on the album, should close.

Of course, this is all very presumptuous. I have actually grown to like (after many, many listens) the segues. I would never really change David's work. However, the album, I think, would be regarded better by the critics with my cuts. (OK, go ahead, leave in Strangers When We Meet as a commercial concession!)

What the hell, it is all a matter of taste!



Sysiyo
(acolyte)
07/04/02 02:40 AM
Re: "how can you hate bowie so much" new [re: UncleFloyd]  

In reply to:

I detest the album version of Hallo Spaceboy. Sorry. The Pet Shop Boys made the song actually LISTENABLE, I think.


Wow, do I totally disagree with you or what! The album version of Hallo Spaceboy was not too good to start with (IMO one of the weakest tracks on the album)., but the way Pet Shop Boys messed with it... horrible! Absolutely terrible! Not to mention the way it was placed on 1. Outside version 2, at the end of the album, which perfectly ruined the dramatics of the album. Simply a dreadful version!

I'm Ba-ack. (Did you miss me? )

Artiste
(grinning soul)
07/04/02 04:52 AM
Re: "how can you hate bowie so much" new [re: Sysiyo]  

Hallo Spaceboy is the weakest link on 1.Outside, though the song itself is grand - listen to the AWESOME version on Jools Holland. David even sings on that one, wish it was on the album.



skellaway
(grinning soul)
07/04/02 06:20 PM
Re: 1. Outside would be absolutely perfect... new [re: Sedna]  

I agree that 'Strangers when we meet' is a refreshing end to Outside, and when you read the booklet and listen to the album the segues give it more feeling.



Sedna
(cracked actor)
07/04/02 06:29 PM
Re: 1. Outside would be absolutely perfect... new [re: CDS]  

did anyone read krettis' version of contamination? i must of downloaded it ages ago and then forgot to read it- i found it the other day while looking through some of my old data Cd-r's and its quite good- i always rememeber his signiture- "dont worry david ive already made your fucking contamination!"

class!

Oranges can fuck off!

schizophrenic
(wild eyed peoploid)
07/08/02 10:46 AM
Oops... new [re: SisterRay]  

Um...hello again.
I think I may have been a bit hasty in my editing decision.
Just yesterday I finally listened to Outside in its entirety and, yes, it is VERY, VERY, GOOD.
Sorry about that.

Heh Heh.

Sysiyo
(acolyte)
07/09/02 10:41 AM
Re: 1. Outside would be absolutely perfect... new [re: Sedna]  

In reply to:

did anyone read krettis' version of contamination?


Read Contamination? I wrote African with him!

Transatlantique

xgirl81
(wild eyed peoploid)
07/09/02 05:04 PM
Re: 1. Outside would be absolutely perfect... new [re: CDS]  

I wouldn't change anything. I've always thought that if you cut something out from the original album, change the sequence of songs after your own mind, or replace some songs with songs from another album, it looses something (more than gains, actually). And I definitely wouldn't take away the seags. I like them, especially Baby Grace (A Horrid Cassette) and Algeria Touchschriek. I like and agree with what someone (I don't remember who it was) said- that those seages are what makes this album special and unlike any other album. I understand that without them it would be easier for more people to listen to this album, but- is artist really supposed to do what the greatest number of people want and would appreciate?

But I've got a second, european version of Outside, so it means it ends with a Petshop Boys remix of Hallo Spaceboy (personally, I think that Bowie's original version is better) not with Strangers When We Meet as I would prefer it. And, sadly, it hasn't Wishful Beginnings on it.
What concerns Strangers When We Meet, I agree that the song isn't really so optimistic as it sounds- as with quite many Bowie songs (listen to the lyrics of Dead Against It from Buddha of Suburbia, for instance). And I too think that this version of it deserves to stay on album at least because it's better than an original.

Edited by xgirl81 on 07/09/02 05:08 PM (server time).



bowiefanpeter
(acolyte)
07/15/02 04:09 AM
Re: 1. Outside would be absolutely perfect... new [re: CDS]  

This thread reminded me of a thought that has stumped me for awhile. About how Outside changed drastically from recordings to final release.

Bowie re-recorded songs, recorded new ones, dumped old ones, dropped segueways, edited whole portions of the album and who knows what else. The one thing that kept constant was Bowie's insistance of the project being of a non-linear construct. I wondered if the album may have faired better if Bowie turned it into a "who's next" track sequence. IE: all killer, no filler etc.




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