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BowieTalk
   >> Interpretation
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bibiStardust
(wild eyed peoploid)
09/24/02 07:08 AM
open the dog  

the last sentence of "All the Madmen" is :
"Zane, zane, zane, Ouvrez le chien", which means open the dog, but i'm not sure of this...is it just the EMI nokk version? what bowie said about this? what do yu think of these lyrics?

Drunk on Immortality
Valium and Cherry wine
Cock and Ecstasy
You're gonna blow you're Mind


ZiggyZane
(kook)
09/24/02 09:36 AM
Re: open the dog new [re: bibiStardust]  

Well I think they've been discussed before.

"MAKING LOVE WITH HIS EGO!"

AdamModerator
(crash course raver)
09/24/02 09:57 AM
Re: open the dog new [re: bibiStardust]  

The thread that zz linked, focuses on the pronounciation but there was an earlier thread (now archived) which had some interpretations from a number of TWers.

Bibi, put that gun away.

One of the coolest interpretations was by Claude. As you might know, "All The Madmen" is another Terry song and it is set in Cane Hill Asylum (the mansion cold and gray) where he was institulionalised.

From memory, I think Claude said that "dog" in Italian translates to "Cane". So to "open the dog" is effectively opening Cane Hill and setting Terry free.

Get Bowie Downunder

bowiefanpeter
(acolyte)
09/24/02 12:13 PM
Re: open the dog *DELETED* new [re: bibiStardust]  

Post deleted by bowiefanpeter

uncle_Ruskie
(cracked actor)
09/24/02 02:46 PM
Re: open the dog new [re: Adam]  

In reply to:

Terry


Could you elaborate on who this 'Terry' is, for us uninformed souls?

"Loyalty, and patriotism are best sustained when the enemy seems to be at the gates."

bibiStardust
(wild eyed peoploid)
09/24/02 04:34 PM
Re: open the dog new [re: Adam]  

Well Adam I won't shoot you, I swear!
Of course, i thought about terry ( DB's brother, who killed himself and who was "inzane") because of the lyrics " Here I stand, foot in hand, talking to my wall" ( i hope these are the good lyrics)....but i didn't know all these things! thanx!
I think it's quite interesting, but are you sure Bowie talks italian? i know that an interpretation is never sure, but it sems very weird... but it's bowie, so why not?

Drunk on Immortality
Valium and Cherry wine
Cock and Ecstasy
You're gonna blow you're Mind


Sysiyo
(acolyte)
09/25/02 02:34 AM
Terry Burns new [re: uncle_Ruskie]  

In reply to:

Could you elaborate on who this 'Terry' is, for us uninformed souls?


Terry Burns, Bowie's (half)brother (as bibi noted). Don't you follow anything that happends in these boards?

And bibi, bowie apparently speaks German, so why not italian? (Actually he didn't speak Italian at least at the time of the recording of Ragazza Solo, Ragazza Sola). And you do not nescessarily have to speak a language to include stuff like that into your songs.

"Because we are paranoid" - Kraftwerk

bibiStardust
(wild eyed peoploid)
09/25/02 06:31 AM
Re: Terry Burns new [re: Sysiyo]  

yes you're right but, if B does not speak italian and if he really wrote this because of his brother.... he's a genious!!!! of course he is, but smarter than i thought!

Drunk on Immortality
Valium and Cherry wine
Cock and Ecstasy
You're gonna blow you're Mind


globule2
(electric tomato)
09/25/02 10:02 AM
Re: Terry Burns new [re: bibiStardust]  

Cane works in latin, I believe.



EJSunday
(cracked actor)
09/25/02 10:57 AM
Latin Dogs new [re: bibiStardust]  

In reply to:

if B does not speak italian and if he really wrote this because of his brother.... he's a genious!!!!


Of course he is a genius but the zane-chien-cane connection ist not that elaborate if you consider that the latin "cane" (pron. like "carneh") is very well the root of the English word "cane" (like "caine) and the French "chien", just as globule2 suggested:
cane = dog > chien.
The Latin "cane" is used (in derivations) in several languages for dog related issues, so Bowie did not have to think that hard to find his words. Still good though.


And I want to believe
In the madness that calls 'now'


ohramona
(crash course raver)
09/25/02 12:47 PM
tick tock new [re: bowiefanpeter]  

In reply to:

PS I'm sooooooooo going to delete this post in 10 minutes....


Your time is sooooooooo up!



Pablo Picasso never got called an asshole
Not like you


ZiggyZane
(kook)
09/25/02 12:56 PM
Re: tick tock new [re: ohramona]  

In reply to:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

PS I'm sooooooooo going to delete this post in 10 minutes....



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Your time is sooooooooo up!


I was soooooooo gonna say!

"MAKING LOVE WITH HIS EGO!"

bowiefanpeter
(acolyte)
09/25/02 04:22 PM
Re: open the dog *DELETED* new [re: bowiefanpeter]  

It's sooooooooooooo just deleted.

At least wait until my window of oppurtunity ends for deleting posts ends before making those comments. Is it 24 hours or 36?

BFP



Stella23
(absolute beginner )
09/30/02 09:02 PM
Re: open the dog new [re: bibiStardust]  

I recall reading once that "ouvrez le chien" can be translated as "open up the hammer of your pistol", though I don't have a cite on that. It DOES make more sense, but then again, what doesn't make more sense than "open the dog"?



Ande
(absolute beginner )
10/16/02 00:30 AM
Re: open the dog new [re: Stella23]  

Hi,

I've never posted here before although I've lurked around from time to time since before this site was called "Teenage Wildlife."

Anyhow, my French is more than a little rusty, but I've always heard "Zane" as "zen," as in Zen Buddhism. That seems to go along with the Buddha of Suburbia lyrics. I don't have a copy of All The Madmen to listen for comparisons.

"Ouvre" means "work," as in the "ouvres" of the great masters. If I recall properly, "Ouvre le chien" is an idiomatic expression, which means "dog work" as in "work like a dog." That would also go along with the rest of the lyrics in the BOS version. The part that goes, "Day after day ... "

Bowie's French accent is even worse than my own, which is saying a lot, so perhaps any guess is as good as another.

Ande







96dbFreak
(cracked actor)
10/16/02 01:21 AM
Re: open the dog new [re: bibiStardust]  

For some reason I had always, in my mind, associated “ouvrez le chien” with Luis Bunuel’s surrealist film Un Chien Andalou (Andalousian Dog). The film features the famous, and for a film made in 1929, somewhat shocking scene of the close-up of an eyeball (probably that of some dead bovine) being slit with a cut-throat razor and all the gloop oozing out. Perhaps it was just that I discovered Bowie and The Man Who Sold The World album and saw Un Chien Andalou all around the same time (1972/1973) and, as an impressionable 14-year old, connected all three together.

Then again, maybe Bowie gave me that impression somewhere along the line. This is from an interview published in February 1997:

There are certain films that were fundamental to my understanding of what lighting can do, for instance. It wasn't what a film was about so much, or what they were saying, but how it was lit…..More particularly films by Fritz Lang, like Metropolis. Also maybe [F.W.] Murnau's Nosferatu- the playing with silhouette and shadow and how extraordinarily graphic a movement could become if it is only half lit. Things would become so imperial, when only lit with white light, but also so mythlike….When I started playing around with the idea of Ziggy [Stardust], who was a mythic character, it seemed so right for him. In fact [we didn't end up using that kind of lighting] until the middle '70s with the Thin White Duke, which was sort of fully German Expressionistic. In fact, we used to open up with Un Chien Andalou, by [Luis] Bunuel and Salvador Dali, as the support act. I could always tell when I was due onstage because I would hear this shriek come out from the audience when they would cut the eye. I thought to myself, "Oh, I've got fifteen minutes."

Stu
This is er..a new song, it’s not recorded yet, s’called I’m Telling Lies. But I’m not. Yes I am.


zimmo
(wild eyed peoploid)
10/16/02 10:29 AM
Re: open the dog new [re: bibiStardust]  

zzzzzz sane sane sane? zzzz sane sane sane





bibiStardust
(wild eyed peoploid)
10/17/02 10:52 AM
Re: open the dog new [re: Ande]  

well Ande and 96dbFreak, those ideas are very....special,but why not?
exept that i'm french,and "ouvre" doesn't mean work...work means "travaille" and "ouvre" means open...or maybe it's just a sens of this word i don't know!
96dbFreak; i don't know if there's a link between "ouvrez le chien" (if that's the real sentence bowie sings) and Dali's Un Chien Andalou,but i know Bowie used to show Un Chien Andalou to his audience in the first part of the shows he made during the Sound and Vision Tour.


It's hard to be gay when you're in a fucker's world

Ande
(absolute beginner )
10/17/02 07:43 PM
Re: open the dog new [re: bibiStardust]  

Hi Bibi,

You're French? Coool!

Yes, travailler is a French word for the English sense of "to work" but ouvre [sp?] is a "product of work" or "produit de travaille," at least according to the sense of ouvre as normally used when referring to "works" of art, or as in my old micro-robert poche. Again, I haven't any practice with my French for 10 years or more, but "chien," used to be used to refer to just about anything miserable, as in "temps de chien" and "vie de chien." These types of colloquial usages do change over time and place, though.

On the other hand, "chien" *does* have a technical meaning as being the hammer of a fire arm, the part that actually hits the bullet and sends it through the barrel. So the reading of "open your gun," if that's what's being considered may well be a variant of the more colloquial "cock your pistol."

But can you, or anyone, actually make out the real pronunciation that was *intended*? I can't say that I can. I've heard plenty of English lyrics "wrong" so I don't expect to be able to make out fractured French with much confidence.

And



96dbFreak
(cracked actor)
10/17/02 08:53 PM
Ride ‘em cowboy new [re: Ande]  

In reply to:

a variant of the more colloquial "cock your pistol."


That’s interesting. I always thought that “chien” meant “dog” and that “ouvrez” meant open, but “cock your pistol” puts a whole new spin on it – particularly since the preceding lyric “zane zane zane” might be “Zane Zane Zane”, referring to Zane Grey the renowned author of hundreds of western novels.

"Cock your pistol" may also have an alternative meaning (Bowie was never one to avoid double-entendre and alternating imagery) in a sexual context.

Stu
This is er..a new song, it’s not recorded yet, s’called I’m Telling Lies. But I’m not. Yes I am.


Ande
(absolute beginner )
10/17/02 09:13 PM
Re: Ride ‘em cowboy new [re: 96dbFreak]  

I think there is a completely different etymology for "ouvrez" or "ouvrir" than there is for "ouvre" "ouvrage"or "ouvrier." It's easier for English speakers to see the connection to "open" in "ouvrir."

"Ouvre" is seldom seen in English except as a reference to works of art, literature, or as an ironic comment. I could be totally misremembering this, but I seem to recall that "ouvre" as "work" is derived from, of all things, a Latin based word for "egg." Nowadays, if someone "lays an egg," it would imply that their efforts went rather flat or worse. A few centuries ago, though, it seemed to indicate quite an achievement.

There are often so many arcane additional meanings for words that it's difficult to know which meaning is intended.

But with "cock your pistol," I think the double entendres are wonderful, and if that translation is at all possible, I'm sure all the entendres were intentional.

Ande



anisette
(electric tomato)
10/17/02 09:44 PM
Re: open the dog new [re: Ande]  

In reply to:

ouvre [sp?]


Herein lies your problem...you're confusing the word oeuvre with the word "ouvre."

Your French really is rusty, isn't it?

ain't no use in complainin' when you got a job to do

Ande
(absolute beginner )
10/17/02 10:03 PM
Re: open the dog new [re: anisette]  

Yes, my French really is more than rusty, hence the [sp?].
"Oeuvre" is the standard English spelling of the word, but not the only one. [Note: I edited my typo here so as to avoid confusing future readers as to what I intended. I had originally typoed "oeurve" and when I backspaced & tried to "correct" it, turning it into "ouevre" I made it even worse for those who have hair trigger reactions to spelling errors. When I worked as an editor, I too had those reflexes. On usenet or on the web, however, I really don't get exercised over such matters.]

"Ouvre" or "ouvree" however, is a proper spelling of the French word with the same meaning as "ouevre." [This remains true. It does not seem to carry the connotations of artistic significance; it's just what has been produced.]

Edited by Ande on 10/18/02 01:22 PM (server time).



anisette
(electric tomato)
10/17/02 10:18 PM
Re: open the dog new [re: Ande]  

In reply to:

Ouevre" is the standard English spelling of the word


I'm sorry, but you are WRONG again. Oeuvre is both the French and English spelling of the word, not O-U-E-V-R-E. Note that the oe + u combo is used, and it has a different pronunciation than the ou combo. It is the same "oe + u" combo that is in the word "soeur," meaning sister and "oeuf," meaning egg.

Get out a dictionary for god's sake.

ain't no use in complainin' when you got a job to do

Ande
(mortal with potential)
10/17/02 11:03 PM
Re: open the dog new [re: anisette]  

Uhhh, sorry, but that's exactly what I did, got out a dictionary. More precisely the Micro-Robert Poche1 Dictionnaire de Langue Francaise, published by Dictionnaires de Robert who claim to have their offices in Paris. My old edition was last revised in 1989. The entry for "ouvre" is on page 887 of that particular edition. There is no alternative spelling in this edition, other than the "ouvree" with a cute little accent mark.

[I edited this out to snip pedantic drivel, I don't really want to start or encourage crazy spelling flames]

You are correct as to the standard English spelling of the word. (The common English spelling makes the etymology from the Romance root word for "egg" a lot more evident.)

As to the point of the original post, however, what has been most problematic has been trying to determine what word was intended to be sung or spoken. Phonetically it sounds closer to "ouvre" or "oovr" to me. Others seem to think it sounds more like "oo-vray." These possibilities give rise to an attempt to find words that plausibly fit the sound.

Edited by Ande on 10/18/02 01:13 PM (server time).



anisette
(electric tomato)
10/17/02 11:08 PM
Re: open the dog new [re: Ande]  

blah blah blah

ouvrir
oeuvrer

two different verbs
two separate roots
not similar in any way

that's all i'm saying

ain't no use in complainin' when you got a job to do

Ande
(mortal with potential)
10/17/02 11:12 PM
Re: open the dog new [re: Ande]  

Anisette,

You have my apologies. I have checked further & again. You are also correct as to an alternate French spelling.

However, the spelling isn't of any real consequence to the meaning of the phrase. The problem is lining up the "phonics" of the lyrics with the meaning of an actual word which reflects the pronunciation.

Is there a "real" word, of any meaning, being used in the lyric? Does it have a real meaning, a figurative meaning, no meaning at all? I think there's always a good chance that

1) we haven't heard it properly
2) it wasn't pronounced properly
3) it wasn't intended to have any standard meaning

Ande






Ande
(mortal with potential)
10/17/02 11:29 PM
Re: open the dog new [re: anisette]  

Hi Anisette,

Please see my apology in a separate post.

The spelling issue is unrelated to the proposed interpretation since the meanings of the word(s) as a "work" is essentially the same. How they are pronounced doesn't really matter at all in this instance because we are trying to discern the sounds made by someone who is "singing" and who doesn't speak the language any better than I do, which is just another way of saying Bowie's pronunciation is crappy. Like mine.

BTW, I actually do know how to spell most of the time.

Ande



SenselessThing
(grinning soul)
10/18/02 01:46 AM
Re: open the dog new [re: bibiStardust]  

I did a Google search one time for this phrase and it seems there's a French theatre troupe named "Ouvre le Chien", which, as an interesting aside, counts among its members none other than Dominique Pinon from all those (great) Jeunet et Caro movies. So obviously it means something to the French-- that is unless they got the name from the Bowie song.


---------------------------------------------------------------------

My life was saved by rock & roll.

monkeypunch2
(grinning soul)
10/18/02 03:07 AM
Re: open the dog new [re: SenselessThing]  

(in reply to)
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
So obviously it means something to the French-- that is unless they got the name from the Bowie song.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In which case y'all'd be right back where you started (lol - what a cunundrum)


monkeypunch
(to err is human, but to monkeypunch is divine)






TKR
(absolute beginner)
10/18/02 05:16 AM
Re: open the dog new [re: Ande]  

Just to let you spelling "fanatics" know :-)

At the 1996 Outside tour in Copenhagen, which I attended, a (big) sign was placed hanging from the lightning rig stating "Ouvre le Chien" in that exact spelling. Below it was an old table with some old books on it, and he performed several songs sitting at the table and/or lying on the table.
Without much reflection it seemed to make sense in the context of songs performed that night such as "The Hearts Filthy Lesson", "Scary Monsters", "Voyeur of Utter Destruction" etc.
-Tomas




PHOENIX
(cracked actor)
10/18/02 06:53 AM
Easy Interpretation new [re: bibiStardust]  

I always half believed, after finding out on this site that the words translated to "open the dog", that Bowie was simply inserting something nonsensical into the dialogue of the song's character.

If you think about it, the song relates to us the words of someone who is not really clinically insane, but feels more at home with people who are. It's no real stretch then, after "talking to the wall", and doing other things to make him appear worthy of being admitted to this locked up society, that he would chant some kind of nonsensical verse.

If you were to examine some random scribblings of those who are mad, they would invariably turn out to be only comprehensible to the author, and contain no real deeper meaning in an intellectual way. They may indeed just be plain nonsense or almost random.

The chien-dog-<Italian>-Cane-Cane Asylum interpretation is a bit of a stretch for me. I really feel that he was aiming at something that wouldn't make any sense whatsoever.

2. And the eyes of them were both opened and they knew they were both naked, and Adam said to her, 'Stand back, I don't know how big this is going to get.'

bibiStardust
(wild eyed peoploid)
10/18/02 07:04 AM
Re: open the dog new [re: Ande]  

Well this is very interesting but i can't see in my old micro-robert poche this sense of ouvre as "product of work".I think it should be "ouvrier" or "oeuvre" for product of work...
Anyway,the translation of "chien" here is very interesting,i didn't think about that at all ! Félicitation!

About the pronunciation of the sentence "ouvrez le chien" is not really clear...if i hear it very carefuly i can get " ouvrez lé chienne",and i think Bowie never told the real sentence he sings here...

It's hard to be gay when you're in a fucker's world

SenselessThing
(grinning soul)
10/18/02 09:51 AM
Re: open the dog new [re: bibiStardust]  

In reply to:

ouvrez lé chienne


This would be the feminine form of chien, which translates to "bitch". Which would be a whole new kettle or weirdness.

If any of us ever meet the man himself, we should ask him what it means. (That is if we can talk at all rather than just going into shock like screaming teeny boppers, which would be me.)

---------------------------------------------------------------------

My life was saved by rock & roll.

AdamModerator
(crash course raver)
10/18/02 10:57 AM
"Doggy Songs" and their perverse serenity new [re: PHOENIX]  

To understand why this phrase was reprised on the Outside Tour, we need to look closer at the relevant album.......

In reply to:

[phoenix]
If you were to examine some random scribblings of those who are mad, they would invariably turn out to be only comprehensible to the author, and contain no real deeper meaning in an intellectual way. They may indeed just be plain nonsense or almost random.


Bowie has expressed a fascination with the insane, not only through the asylum inmates ("The Angel Man") that appear on his album but also the fact his music has been informed by their speech patterns. Take the Ramona A Stone segue, for instance. Bowie talks about "ape men with metal parts" and "painting the funny colored English". Aided by a lyrical cut up program, he demonstrates precisely the disjointed absurdity that only the insane can justify.

It's quite obvious that these outsider artists don't have the parameters that are placed on most artists....Their motivation for painting and sculpting comes froma different place than that of the average artist who's sane on society's terms. The lesson to learn from Outsider art was that the artist should be primal. Technique or virtuosity didn't matter; that which was unformed and screaming inside of you, waiting to be released, was the real essence of the creativity.

"Ouvre Le Chien" is clearly Bowie's moto for the Outsider, hence him using the phrase as a banner on the said tour.

It could be said that "Open the dog" is about releasing the animal, primal instinct, screaming inside the heart of the artiste.

During the Outside Tour, Bowie began referring to his songs on stage as "doggy songs".

These are the songs of mad dog Bowie. Let's hope they return to the fore once again.

Get Bowie Downunder

Ande
(mortal with potential)
10/18/02 01:35 PM
Re: open the dog new [re: bibiStardust]  

Hi Bibi,

I agree that the meaning is not clear, perhaps it was deliberately made to be unclear or at least equivocal. But the lack of clarity is what makes it fun and interesting to play with.

I just hope that the meaning is not supposed to be "open the dog." That just sounds way too vivesectionist for my tastes. Another poster says there is a French group that calls themslves "Ouvre le Chien." Do you know anything about this?

If I recall correctly, there was a time when there was a popular slang meaning for "chien" that meant "to have style" or to "be cool and chic." The derivation of that particular expression was related to "chic." I always thought that it was related to the English slang popular sometime around the 30s or so that included "putting on the dog" as a reference to what were at the time very fashionable dog-skin gloves! Yick!

Do you know if the spelling of "ouvre" is something that came from an "official" Bowie lyric sheet, or are we all just conjecturing wildly? My only source comes from my copy of BOS & it didn't come with written lyrics.

Ande



Ande
(mortal with potential)
10/18/02 01:40 PM
Re: open the dog new [re: TKR]  

You're so lucky to have seen this! "Open the dog" sounds so gross to me, it reminds me of a dissection lab. If he put up that sign at a concert where songs from Outside was being performed, though, that meaning sure would fit the ambience. Ughh!



bibiStardust
(wild eyed peoploid)
10/20/02 08:17 AM
Re: open the dog new [re: Ande]  

"there is a French group that calls themslves "Ouvre le Chien."" yes i already heard that and i know they do theatre: it's never about real things (like Ubu et le Roi),in french we say they do de l'absurde,i don't know the translation for this, but they're not popular and they play on small stage...

""chien" that meant "to have style" or to "be cool and chic."", well i don't think so...these are the different use of "chien" in french.First, chien means dog."être chien" means Being mean or bad, "chienne de vie" ou "vie de chien" mean that our life sucks,it's also a piece of a gun like someone already said.
It's often refering to something negative when it's about someone!
i hope you're smarter now ;-), i probly forgot some but i will put them later!

It's hard to be gay when you're in a fucker's world

eraserhead
(cracked actor)
10/22/02 03:54 AM
Re: "Doggy Songs" and their perverse serenity new [re: Adam]  

In reply to:

It could be said that "Open the dog" is about releasing the animal, primal instinct, screaming inside the heart of the artiste.

During the Outside Tour, Bowie began referring to his songs on stage as "doggy songs".


I think this "open the dog" mentality was there during the Earthling tour as well. I see those two tours as being very connected to each other, like Part 1 and Part 2 of the same gothic drama.

When Bowie was in Sweden in July 1997, a reporter asked him what kind of songs he would play at the Lollipop festival in Stockholm. Bowie replied: "Big, long fat ones, with great big tentacles on. Those kind of songs."




"Don't let Krusty's death get you down, boy. People die all the time, just like that. Why, you could wake up dead tomorrow. Well, good night!" Homer Simpson


pussycatraynor
(crash course raver)
11/22/02 01:44 PM
Re: Easy Interpretation new [re: PHOENIX]  

i agree... i think he speaks French well and, being a fan of french writers like celine, genet, et al, I think too it was, as you said "simply inserting something nonsensical into the dialogue of the song's character."

Zane being a twist on sane, and a harbringer of other Z's... and then the rest was something born out of "ok- what rhymes with zane, harhar".

If you've ever seen the Buddha of Suburbia video (the phrase is reused in the song), he grins and shakes his head naughtily as it is sung, rolling his eyes as it's rephrased, as if to say "It was a JOKE".

thank u (curtsey).


...Life's a banquet and most poor suckers are starving...

pussycatraynor
(crash course raver)
11/22/02 01:47 PM
Re: "Doggy Songs" and their perverse serenity new [re: Adam]  

doggy or dodgy?

...Life's a banquet and most poor suckers are starving...

LemonInABag
(grinning soul)
12/14/02 07:01 PM
Re: open the dog new [re: bibiStardust]  

Well i once called the library and had that whole thing translated and they told me it is "Crazy, Crazy, Crazy, Open the Dog" but the lady who translated it was under the impression that dog was intended in the phrase to be taken as the slang, Bitch. I know the spelling of male dog and female dog is different but i think its possible that Open the Bitch could be what he intended, but maybe not, I just know what im told since i'm neither Bowie nor French.




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