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pianocraft
(electric tomato)
12/16/02 05:09 PM
We love Outside, that's the point  

It's a safe bet that most of us love Outside, the dark themes, the death abyss, the mutilations, murder, and ignorance at the turn of the century.

That's exactly the albums's theme, that violence is now a form of entertainment, and we watch the destruction as a form of beauty.



WildWind
(acolyte)
12/18/02 00:26 AM
Yes, but that's not why new [re: pianocraft]  

Much like the statement that was attempted in Natural Born Killers.

However, I don't think we like the album because of the theme, that is, I don't think it's the violence and death that makes the album worth listening to. The music, and how we enjoy it, can certainly exist independent of the story. I bet most people don't even think about the story when listening to it. I know I don't; I just like the music.

I also know at least one person who can't stand the album because of the theme.

Anyway, I believe you're trying to suggest a certain irony in the fact that the album attempts to expose the way violence is seen as entertainment, but yet the album itself is violent, and we see it as entertainment. While that is an interesting thought, I don't think that the violence and the entertainment value of the album are inextricably linked.

WW

What's this? Another door?

pianocraft
(electric tomato)
12/18/02 04:43 PM
Re: Yes, but that's not why new [re: WildWind]  

WW, when I try to determine the point of Outside, what stands out most about the album's story is the idea of"art-crime".

Murder is now an art form.

When you say you listen to the album merely for the music, you are much like the person standing in front of the eviscerated form of Baby Grace admiring the music emanating from her limbs.

You like the music, you say, but don't consider the limbs to which the speakers are attached.

You prove Bowie's point exactly: we are able to distance ourselves from a 14 year-old's death so well that it exists merely as an artistic expression.








WildWind
(acolyte)
12/18/02 10:05 PM
Fiction and reality: a distinction new [re: pianocraft]  

In reply to:

When you say you listen to the album merely for the music, you are much like the person standing in front of the eviscerated form of Baby Grace admiring the music emanating from her limbs.


I don't agree. There are two fundamental differences between the album and the "art crime" itself:

1) No one was actually harmed in the making of the album.
2) The music in the album is extricable from the concept. While the murder has nothing to do with the way the instruments interact, with Garson's brilliant key solo in "Hallo Spaceboy," with the brilliance of "Strangers When We Meet," you cannot separate the murder from the "art crime." The murder is the art.

Enjoying art with violent themes is nothing new. What about Edgar Allen Poe? Are we not allowed to appreciate his literature for Poe's superior writing and extraordinary gift for description without being mere voyeurs of violence? Picasso's Guernica is all about death and the spilling of blood. Appreciating these works doesn't mean that we get off on the violence. At most, it means we appreciate the commentary on the violence. More likely, it means that we aesthetically enjoy someone's harmless expression of art.

I agree somewhat that the album is a commentary on the public's enjoyment of violence, and a suggestion that valuing art for art's sake to an extreme could lead to the discarding of values that are deemed "more important" in the common value structure. However, I don't believe that this is what the album does. We're not getting off on Baby Grace's murder, we're enjoying Bowie's expression of a story, or simply the music with which he does it.

WW

What's this? Another door?

pianocraft
(electric tomato)
12/19/02 05:00 AM
Re: Fiction and reality: a distinction new [re: WildWind]  

That's true, that is a relevant difference. No one was killed making Outside. The music is not murder.

I wonder, however, and this is a new point, if Bowie feels that the music itself is murder. After all, he did say, "This ain't rock 'n roll...."



th0mas
(cracked actor)
12/19/02 06:27 AM
Re: Fiction and reality: a distinction new [re: pianocraft]  

In reply to:

No one was killed making Outside.


probably. killing for art is one step. but what about creating art from already dead people?

life on a hill
where you drop your orange
on the way to your car
then travel a block
and a half to retrieve it
(c. cosper)


WildWind
(acolyte)
12/19/02 08:33 PM
Perhaps, perhaps, perhaps new [re: pianocraft]  

In reply to:

I wonder, however, and this is a new point, if Bowie feels that the music itself is murder. After all, he did say, "This ain't rock 'n roll...."


I'm not sure what you mean. What or whom is the music murdering? He did indeed utter that line on the Diamond Dogs album, but in an entirely different context. I don't think it bears any relation to 1. Outside

In reply to:

killing for art is one step. but what about creating art from already dead people?


A very good question, th0mas. Actually, I was thinking about that as I posted in this thread last night. Long ago in an archived post far, far away, someone, Claude, I believe, posted a link to the description of an art show that was exactly that: art made from body parts or manipulations of corpses. I found it very interesting.

I don't see anything wrong with it, to be honest, as long as the corpses are used with their own consent (pre-death, of course; instead of donating one's body to science, one would donate it to art), or with the consent of their families. After all, there's not much to do with a dead body - why not make something aesthetically interesting or even beautiful out of it? There's no logical reason that the dead body should be inherently repulsive.

I'd prefer, however, if people donated their organs before donating the waste to art.

WW


What's this? Another door?

pianocraft
(electric tomato)
12/20/02 04:57 AM
Re: Perhaps, perhaps, perhaps new [re: WildWind]  

I wonder if, on both Outside and DD, Bowie is saying that rock and roll is bad for people.

Can a work of art, Bowie wonders, be both creative and destructive?

Baby Grace, a 14 year-old, has been mutilated for music.

Can the whole concept be a metaphor for the destructive nature of rock music? Bowie has already called rock "genocide."





th0mas
(cracked actor)
12/20/02 08:20 AM
Re: Perhaps, perhaps, perhaps new [re: WildWind]  

In reply to:

why not make something aesthetically interesting or even beautiful out of it?


i think there is a border one should not step over - producing this plastic people is one thing, using them for one's selfish artistic reasons (=to become famous) is something i can't accept. apart from that the decision from donating one's body should not only depend on his own choice or familie's choice - there is still a responsibility of the individuum towards society (that's why nobody is allowed to offer his human rights for money - it's his right but for the protection of the rights of other people one can't allow certain things. it should be the same way for his body).
the link is Körperwelten

life on a hill
where you drop your orange
on the way to your car
then travel a block
and a half to retrieve it
(c. cosper)


JellicleCat
(grinning soul)
12/20/02 04:29 PM
Re: We love Outside, that's the point new [re: pianocraft]  

.:. Frankly, I think that almost all of Outside is metaphorical. Yes, they tell us about some people doing crazy things, becoming victims of crime, etc., but it's also very symbolic and not all of it is to be taken at a literal level.

.:. As for that "making art out of dead people" thing... What can I say. That's disgusting. The only exception for mutilation of ANY dead corpse is in the case of Vampyres, which I have yet to see happen. Ever. Just my 2 cents worth. *gag*

~ Jelli feels sick.




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