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AdamModerator
(crash course raver)
10/25/03 06:40 AM
Ziggy Stadust and Fascism new  

The connection between fascism and The Thin White Duke is well documented.

But for the more observant fan, what of the Ziggy Stardust character / album / stage design could have fascist overtones?





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pianocraft
(crash course raver)
10/25/03 12:42 PM
Re: Ziggy Stadust and Fascism new [re: Adam]  

I guess fascism can be simply defined as a political movement or philosophy that exalts nation or race above the individual.

Yes, there are fascist overtones in the Ziggy movement. The obvious "Z" lighting in the stage show resembles a swastika and reminds us of the charismatic Nazi military rallies in which the populace subjected themselves to the master leader.

In the same way, Ziggy concerts darkened the audience and lit Ziggy himself. These kids who sat in the dark were merely "crass" and even the band took a back seat to Ziggy and his ego.

In this way, Ziggy could be compared to a dictator to whom the kids meant nothing and whose legacy was all important.



zigbot
(kook)
10/26/03 05:36 PM
Re: "Snow White Tan" new [re: Adam]  

ZIggy was "snow white tan"--Aryan?

Zigbot

LaughingGnoome
(crash course raver)
10/26/03 06:02 PM
Attachment
Jap Girl in Synthesis new [re: zigbot]  

In reply to:

ZIggy was "snow white tan"--Aryan?


No, Geisha Girl.

The Geisha girls were (actually are) a form of japanese tradition, they would be exquisitely beautiful, and paint their faces white, they would learn how to walk elegantly and practice music and poetry, in medieval Japan wealthy men would pay to be entertained by them. Id like to post a picture but a search only revealed porno sites. Like Ziggy, the Geisha girls were also fantasies brought to life, the result of synthesis and fabrication, to create a desired effect which would be pleasing to their customers.

The clearest evidence of a facist link with Ziggy (an album i dont like - though this has nothing to do with any nazi-element) is in the lightening bolt Z symbol of ziggy stardust. The icon is arranged very similiarly to the way the S is arranged in the nazi SS insignia.




AdamModerator
(crash course raver)
10/26/03 09:13 PM
visions of swastikas in his head new [re: LaughingGnoome]  

The monumentalism of Albert Speer I found fascinating. And I was interested in the symbols of the Nazis.

I think they are the most powerful set of symbols that have been invoked in terms of political history. The swastika.

They took a Buddhist symbol, the Eastern symbol of the sun, and turned it around so it became a symbol of the dark.

That intrigued me about the Nazis. Who was the magnus? Who was the black magician?


- David Bowie, Arena, 1993.


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AdamModerator
(crash course raver)
10/26/03 10:34 PM
Pink Floyd: The Wall new [re: Adam]  

Going back to nigelp's discussion:

"Instead of a swastika, the symbol of the nazis, Pink uses the hammer. As I stated earlier, the hammers, in this song and throughout the rest of the album, represent oppression by force."




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AdamModerator
(crash course raver)
10/26/03 10:35 PM
Attachment
SS Evolution new [re: LaughingGnoome]  









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poorsoul
(stardust savant)
10/27/03 00:54 AM
Re: SS Evolution new [re: Adam]  

Interestingly, the 'original' Nazi swastica looked rather like that second badge, if you imagine the S shape interlayed over that little stem in the middle. So, to start off with, it didn't actully resemble the Buddhist symbol all that closely.

Never put off until tomorrow what you can put off doing till next week.

LaughingGnoome
(crash course raver)
10/27/03 04:23 PM
Re: visions of swastikas in his head new [re: Adam]  

"He was the naz with god given ass"

vintagerock24
(electric tomato)
10/27/03 07:44 PM
Re: visions of swastikas in his head new [re: LaughingGnoome]  

This is some great information !

T.ReXBowiE


There's never gonna be enough drugs,so I'm never ever gonna get high and I'm never ever gonna get low

LaughingGnoome
(crash course raver)
10/28/03 05:27 AM
Re: SS Evolution new [re: Adam]  

The Alladin Sane pose is striking, Bowie really does look a bit like a caricature of a proud marching Nazi, in the way he is posing in that picture, something a little militiaristic about it and camp at the same time.

As for the "He was the naz" quote, yes "naz" was discussed before, but this thread opens up another dimension for discussion.

One thing about Bowie is, the man is a genius when it came to synthesis. Blending wildly contrasting ideas and symbols together. Homosexuality The Occult Madness and Aryan Mythology in 1971. And now a geisha girl with an (SS?) soldier in 1972. Hell he even went to the next level in 74, blending a man with a dog!

The Japanese/German influences are also interesting as these were the axis forces during the war. Bowie being a Londoner born in 47, would have grown up in the immediate aftermath of WW2 (both geographically and chronologically), this would have exerted a strong influence upon him. Perhaps common anti-nazi propaganda and lingering resentment permeating the air in those days showed him how best to be rebellious and non-conformist, the fact that his mother was a fan of the anti-semite Oswald Mosley (and in her own brand of rebellion later had a child (Terry) by a jewish man), probably also gave him a few pointers. A touch of the bizarre was essential if he was going to attract attention (in an era of oddball musicians), Yes Bowie's "red sails" were certainly flying high in 1972.

svinepelz
(grinning soul)
10/29/03 08:23 AM
Re: visions of swastikas in his head new [re: LaughingGnoome]  

Actually, I believe "the nazz" has nothing to with nazism, but is a reference to Lord Buckley's song(?) The Nazz, a "a 'hipsemantic' retelling of the life of Christ" (allmusic.com quote). Read it yourself, and see. The text has a remarkable "Ziggy feel", the way The Nazz is portrayed as a Christ figure, there's talk of cats (from Japan?), "laying it" (on someone? Ref. Moonage Daydream) etc. I'm not saying this is a Ziggy blueprint or anything like that, but it's an interesting read.

The Nazz: http://www.informer.org/nazz.html

More on Lord Buckley: www.allmusic.com, search for lord buckley.

----------------------------------------------------
Fill the cup with these sleepy souls

poorsoul
(stardust savant)
10/30/03 03:46 AM
He Played Guitar new [re: svinepelz]  

When He laid it,
He laid it left hand.

Never put off until tomorrow what you can put off doing till next week.

guiltpuppy
(kook)
10/31/03 09:40 AM
Re: Ziggy Stadust and Fascism new [re: Adam]  

Definitely, at least in sentiment. It's kind of intrinsic to the Rise and Fall Rockstar concept album, which has become pretty much a formula by this point.

The three albums which come to mind which bear a strong narrative similarity are Pink Floyd's The Wall, The Who's Tommy, and Marilyn Manson's Antichrist Superstar.

Here's a quick overview of all of these:
1 Some kid gets fucked up
2 The kid decides to become a rockstar
3 The kid loses his identity to rockstardom
4 The kid becomes a fascist
5 Sentimental closing track

Now, clearly, the only element which is not obvious about Ziggy is #4... But I think it's safe to assume, from the pattern that it falls in, that it's there...

A logical fallacy? Only on the surface. You have to understand, the formula isn't merely a matter of imitation -- it's just the storyline that the people who ever have the opportunity to write these albums are most attuned to.

First criteria for becoming an artsy rock star: Fucked up childhood. Check #1. Second criteria: Become a rock star. Check #2.

First inevitable result of rockstardom: Alienation, especially potent if you've had a fucked up childhood and are prone to escapism. Check #3.

Likewise, the fascist connection is just the natural one to make, especially for a fucked up kid who has a desire to feel superior. Check #4. Evidenced all over the place in Bowie's work and public image from the seventies, it's there in Ziggy as well, especially in the performance of the persona. It had a propagandist element to it, a collective mind control element about. It had to. It's not artsy rock music if it doesn't.

But because the fucked up kid secretly wants to be love, he has to end on some cathartic or martyrdomic note. (Actually, usually both). Check #5.

It's all very simple really.

Pablo Picasso=great but very good. - Pedro2525

Odinsdracodottir
(wild eyed peoploid)
04/07/04 02:46 AM
Re: SS Evolution new [re: LaughingGnoome]  

Actually, I think of viking dragonships not nazis when I hear the phrase "red sails". Not all viking sails were red, however. It's just that was the stereotypical marker for knowing when the vikings were attacking - seeing red sails / red dragons on the horizon. I always thought Bowie was talking about pirates in that song. *shrug*

____________________________________
My Neopets guild Ormheim

GodlessWonder
(wild eyed peoploid)
04/17/04 02:14 PM
Heil Ziggy new [re: guiltpuppy]  

This thread is very interesting.
I would probably agree that there is a strong connection between many of Bowie's early ideas and oppressive philosophy, take a look at 'Quicksand' for example. Ziggy Stardust certainly contains elements of a oppressive idea, we all know that Bowie had been interested by apocolytic and dystopian societies (such as 1984 and A Clockword Orange).

However, Ziggy as an album is actually untouched by most of the darker qualities we can recognise more in Diamond Dogs or StationToStation. I think that there is a basic idea behind the album (a rockstar who falls due to his growing ego) but this is not really a concept album in the same way that The Wall or Antichrist Superstar is. Remember that most of these songs were recorded at about the same time as Hunky Dory and mainly unconnected.

The only ones that are actually really connected are Five Years, Ziggy Stardust and Rock 'n' Roll Suicide. At a push Starman, but Bowie I seem to recall was more reluctant to include this on the final album.

However, saying this, Bowie I think did base many ideas on certain regimes he could recognise around. Whether it was Nazi, Soviet or Roman (The Eagle) each of these symbols have been documented as fear inducing and powerful. Therefore, it makes sense to re-create something as powerful as these symbols - it grabs peoples attention.

At least I'm not a whore

poorsoul
(acolyte)
04/18/04 01:39 AM
Waltz new [re: Adam]  

I only just noticed the typo in the original subject line. Now I'm off to read A Clockword Orange.

I Will Crush You



SweetChildGNR
(absolute beginner )
04/28/04 08:35 PM
Re: Waltz new [re: poorsoul]  

"Ziggy Stadust" Nice accent.



Rebelvelvet
(absolute beginner )
05/07/04 08:20 AM
Re: Ziggy Stadust and Fascism new [re: Adam]  

Ok there is a book called David Bowie and the occuly In there you can find lots of information about his fascism .I can say lots of things about it



Rebelvelvet
(absolute beginner )
05/07/04 08:22 AM
Re: Pink Floyd: The Wall [re: Adam]  

The hammers mean war, so I think that is not very related but anyways that symbol was very used in the second war



Grey_Nihilist
(electric tomato)
05/07/04 08:14 PM
Re: Ziggy Stadust and Fascism new [re: Rebelvelvet]  

In reply to:

I can say lots of things about it


Please don't. Seriously.


My lovers never leave, you know.


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