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BowieTalk
   >> Interpretation
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Beltene
(acolyte)
05/04/06 01:24 PM
And the guns shot above our heads...  

Hi. I was wondering if anyone ever thought that Heroes might be written about the last days of Hitler and Eva Braun. Perhaps Bowie came up with the rumour that it was written about Tony Visconti because he didn't want to lose his Jewish fanbase. (I hope I'm not losing my Jewish fanbase with this thread)

After all, it is one thing being caught with a copy of Mein Kampf and a completely different thing when you write a romantic song about the last days of hitler. Everybody should read Mein Kampf once so that we know how to recognize and counteract crazies like hitler in the future. The question is, how many people would be comfortable to admit that they saw one of the world's biggest monsters as a sensitive man who is capable of loving another human being? I did so after seeing a private film shot by Eva and after reading a quote by Salvador Dali who saw him as "a masochist who wanted to start a war so he can lose it in a heroic manner". I did an extensive research and since I didn't find any hard core evidence, I concluded that hitler was not a sensitive man and what I saw in these videos was just pretense. I still shared my thoughts with a close, supersensitive friend who got very sad and disappointed at me for ever letting this thought cross my mind.

I read this in another thread about "Heroes":

In reply to:

'Heroes' was inspired by Bowie watching Tony Visconti and backup singer Antonia Maass, who were having an affair at the time, meet in secret at The Berlin Wall, as well as from a painting in a Berlin museum with a similair theme.


This doesn't make much sense because at the time these two love birds were in Berlin, there were no guns shooting above their heads.

Also, why is it that the characters are "heroes" for just one day? Why not two or three days? Did Visconti quit drinking for just one day or what?

Hitler and Eva Braun were married for one day before they killed themselves.


My ass belongs on your face.

diamondogz74
(freecloud)
05/04/06 01:30 PM
Re: And the guns shot above our heads... new [re: Beltene]  

Your theory is interesting Beltene and it's news to me it might have been about Tony Visconti and backup singer Antonia Maass, the story from Bowie's lips...is that it was about two alcoholic lovers who met everyday at the wall, I know nothing else regarding this song.


London Bye Ta-Ta...

Pablo-Picasso
(acolyte)
05/04/06 01:36 PM
Re: And the guns shot above our heads... new [re: diamondogz74]  

Heroes

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Illustrated Discography
Bassman
Helden

Beltene
(acolyte)
05/04/06 01:36 PM
Re: And the guns shot above our heads... new [re: diamondogz74]  

Hitler drank cocaine drops as stated in the book The Last Days Of Hitler and Eva often wrote him mean letters when he was away from her for too long.

My ass belongs on your face.

kalamazoo
(wild eyed peoploid)
05/04/06 01:45 PM
Re: And the guns shot above our heads... new [re: Beltene]  

In reply to:

Also, why is it that the characters are "heroes" for just one day? Why not two or three days? Did Visconti quit drinking for just one day or what?

Hitler and Eva Braun were married for one day before they killed themselves.


Your theory makes a lot of sense!!!
Who knows what Bowie thought, after all, a year earlier he said that fascism was what England needed.
P.



diamondogz74
(freecloud)
05/04/06 01:48 PM
Re: And the guns shot above our heads... new [re: Pablo-Picasso]  

Thank you very much Alan, never seen that page before? It's firmly ensconced into my favs now.

Once again with Bowie, who knows? but I reckon the Otto Mueller theory to be my decider, It just makes more sense Bowiewize with my mind.


London Bye Ta-Ta...

Mxy
(electric tomato)
05/04/06 02:11 PM
Re: And the guns shot above our heads... new [re: diamondogz74]  

I hope Pablo doesn't mind me answering the question dogz posed for him.

In reply to:

Thank you very much Alan, never seen that page before?



No, you hadn't seen that page before.

Mxy's Bizarre Webcomic. Updated daily.

Pablo-Picasso
(acolyte)
05/04/06 02:13 PM
Re: And the guns shot above our heads... new [re: Mxy]  

Don't do half a job, what about this one?

"Once again with Bowie, who knows? "

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Illustrated Discography
Bassman
Helden

Mxy
(electric tomato)
05/04/06 02:22 PM
Re: And the guns shot above our heads... new [re: Pablo-Picasso]  

I think dogz was correctly using the term "who knows?" there (or at least coming pretty close to it). Whether he did it intentionally or not is a different matter, one that would require an interpration topic of its own...

Mxy's Bizarre Webcomic. Updated daily.

Vanessa_Y
(crash course raver)
05/04/06 02:40 PM
Re: And the guns shot above our heads... new [re: Beltene]  

I dunno. I am not saying Hitler was a saint, obviously he was not, but the fact that he was a monster..I think MAYBe even the worst of us may have the ability to care for someone else in thier own strange way.

"I suppose if I were a lot older--like 40 or 50--I'd be a wonderful sugar daddy to some little queen down in Kensington. I'd have a houseboy named Richard to order around."DB, 1976




Beltene
(acolyte)
05/04/06 04:30 PM
Re: And the guns shot above our heads... new [re: Pablo-Picasso]  

In reply to:

Bowie stated on several occasions that the song was based on the time he "saw two lovers standing by the Berlin Wall. An East German watch tower stood high above them, manned by armed guards." He told Rolling Stone Magazine: "Why did they choose the gun turret? I assumed their motive was guilt, thus the act of heroism in facing it." He also told a U.S. reporter: "Maybe they felt guilty about their affair and were drawn to the spot for that reason, to cause the affair to be an act of heroism. It seemed a very 70's incident and their personal survival by self-rule--that's my only positive thought on society today."


This kind of anti soviet propaganda can only work on Western journalists. The truth is, Western Germans were allowed to visit East Germans after 1963, only 2 years after the Berlin Wall was built. Bowie could not have witnessed such an event.

My ass belongs on your face.

th0mas
(acolyte)
05/04/06 04:37 PM
Re: And the guns shot above our heads... new [re: Beltene]  

In reply to:

This doesn't make much sense because at the time these two love birds were in Berlin, there were no guns shooting above their heads.


The guards had towers so any shots fired would have been "above their heads". It is probably rather a Bowie image than a realistic observation.

The guns were shot into the direction of the wall. Not to protect East Berlin from an attack of Western Germany, like they always said, but in order to shoot people in the back if they tried to leave.


I have no idea what kind of wall Hitler could have around. Also "masochist who wanted to start a war so he can lose it in a heroic manner" does not seem to describe him very well, I guess it is just a typical Dali phrase in order to stir the shit a bit, pretty much the same category as Bowie's fascism remarks.


Come and buy my tanks

Edited by th0mas on 05/04/06 04:46 PM (server time).



Bamboo7
(electric tomato)
05/04/06 07:18 PM
Clearly you've never seen Springtime for Hitler new [re: Beltene]  

In reply to:

The question is, how many people would be comfortable to admit that they saw one of the world's biggest monsters as a sensitive man who is capable of loving another human being?





"Not many people know it, but the Fuhrer was a terrific dancer."

"Hitler... there was a painter! He could paint an entire apartment in ONE afternoon! TWO coats!"






Dara
(acolyte)
05/05/06 10:48 AM
Best Interpretation Ever new [re: Beltene]  

In reply to:

Everybody should read Mein Kampf once so that we know how to recognize and counteract crazies like hitler in the future.


Agreed. Though librarians and bookshop assistants tend to give you funny looks.

When the Gestapo tried to arrest Samuel Beckett at his apartment in Paris during the war, they found a copy of Mein Kampf and decided not to bother. It's odd how many people assume that reading a book automatically implies total agreement with its content.

I think it's more important to understand Hitler's times more than the man himself. I suspect there are little Hitlers all over the place all the time, it's pretty much inevitable, but mostly they never rise above middle management at best due to their incompetence and poor people skills.

In reply to:

The question is, how many people would be comfortable to admit that they saw one of the world's biggest monsters as a sensitive man who is capable of loving another human being?


I've no problem with that. I don't think he was unusually sensitive, but he clearly loved Eva, though maybe not as much as he loved his dogs. Then again, I'm always suspicious of people who love animals so much more than they do humans.

I don't think we need to see people who did monstrous things, as Hitler did, as inhuman monsters. In fact, it's dangerous to do so, because it oversimplifies the analysis to "Bad men do bad things" and sidesteps more important questions of how and why.

Slan libh,

Dara

Fiona: I want to be a nutcracker when I grow up.
Burkey: There's no such job.
Fiona: Oh, okay, pedant, a castrater then.
Burkey: Ouch.


diamondogz74
(freecloud)
05/05/06 01:33 PM
Re: Best Interpretation Ever new [re: Dara]  

In reply to:

Then again, I'm always suspicious of people who love animals so much more than they do humans.


That depends on the humans, I know quite a lot who haven't got as much common sense as my Effee, I don't think that's really fair Dara, I think we love our pets in a different way, because they depend on us, as do young children, adult love is totally different IMO.



London Bye Ta-Ta...

Shelle
(cracked actor)
05/06/06 03:12 PM
Re: And the guns shot above our heads... new [re: Beltene]  

In reply to:

Hi.


Hi.

In reply to:

I was wondering if anyone ever thought that Heroes might be written about the last days of Hitler and Eva Braun.


It wasn't.

The problem with the theory and the whole interpretation is it pre-supposes that David Bowie is as smart as Beltene.

Which he quite clearly is not.

That's why it's best to leave Interpretation to those fans who are as dumb or dumber than Bowie, such as too dizzy.

"Yeah whatever Shelle. Looky, looky, I'm a hard nosed businesswoman." --- Our Lord and Master, Adam


guiltpuppy
(cracked actor)
05/17/06 05:57 AM
Re: Best Interpretation Ever new [re: Dara]  

In reply to:

I don't think we need to see people who did monstrous things, as Hitler did, as inhuman monsters. In fact, it's dangerous to do so, because it oversimplifies the analysis to "Bad men do bad things" and sidesteps more important questions of how and why.



But there is terror in that, for what we recognize as human we inevitably find within ourselves. We all have our moral failings, and can have only an incomplete confidence; could you cope with a true understanding of the fact that, were these failings to happen in a certain sequence at a certain time, you could find yourself responsible for the deaths of millions?

We like to attribute great evil a supernatural quality, of sorts, to separate them from ourselves, to create an imagined limit to the evil that we could do. "I am human," we tell ourselves, "and humans can only do so wrong; even if I fuck up in the biggest way I can, I'll still never be a Hitler." Much as Hitler may have sought comfort, on some level, in the belief that however much he fucked up, he would still never be a Jew.



Dara
(acolyte)
05/17/06 08:30 AM
Re: Best Interpretation Ever new [re: guiltpuppy]  

In reply to:

We all have our moral failings, and can have only an incomplete confidence; could you cope with a true understanding of the fact that, were these failings to happen in a certain sequence at a certain time, you could find yourself responsible for the deaths of millions?



Good point, and to answer your question, yes, I could.

I think once you have that realisation, you can shift your focus to where it should be, which is to educate yourself and others that this possibility exists, to be able to recognise that it is there in most of us but should never be indulged, and to be able to recognise the circumstances in which it is likely to come to the fore so that you can do everything you can to avoid those circumstances presenting.

Personally, I find the whole idea of saints, superhumans and superheroes to be a pleasing fiction, and perhaps a useful aspiration, but ascribing them to any one human being is downright dangerous, particularly if it's a precursor to vesting them with more power than a single human should have. We should just accept that all humans are flawed, and therefore put in place limit checks to the amount of damage any one of us can do. The reason communism failed in the twentieth century is not that there was anything fundamentally wrong with the idea, but that in its implementation, it placed far too much power into the hands of specific humans, who being human inevitably corrupted when given that kind of power.

Slan libh,

Dara

Fiona: I want to be a nutcracker when I grow up.
Burkey: There's no such job.
Fiona: Oh, okay, pedant, a castrater then.
Burkey: Ouch.



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