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BowieTalk
   >> Interpretation
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StrangeDrugs
(wild eyed peoploid)
05/27/01 05:56 PM
Re: The Motel - - Kreutzberg, Berlin, 1977 new [re: Adam]  

This is a small thought I had the other day that seems to be slightly relevant...but probably isn't.
Zero. 0.
It's interesting that the symbol for nothing, zero, is a circle. Circles have no beginning and no end, go on forever yet never begin, like time that doesn't really exist.

But if there is a symbol for zero,it has to represent SOMETHING, or at least the absence of something, but that's impossible since there cannot be absolutes. ...Like the colour black is the absence of colour but that cannot be...we can never have absolutes becos there is no fact, only varying degrees of opinion...
SO becos everything is nothing,nothing is everything. And I once thought that opposites were the same but I've modified that. Or perhaps they ARE opposite ends of a string that when put together become a circle so they really are the same but theyre nothing becos everthing is nothing...but what I was going to say is that they could be the parallel lines in a spiral that cannot exist without the other...like you would not know what darkness was unless you had light to compare it to...
Did I have a point I was getting to? Like whatever drugs whoever was on, my mind works faster than i can talk or type or even think, my thoughts interupt themselves...there is something comforting in insanity, but it is a quest...

And whoever said that Bowie lost interest in this idea and blahblahblah, that was wonderful. Cos everything is nothing and who cares and damn. I have to stop this now.





NoGame
(cracked actor)
05/27/01 06:01 PM
Freaky ! new [re: StrangeDrugs]  

That was a freaky, ass-kicking, fuzzy post !

'...the absence of something...'' - sounds very cool !

Anyway. I take this oppurtunity to says this is an excellent thread. Many thanks to Adam for posting his thoughts to these boards. Very inspired.

Sometimes this place does rock eh? Now... back to Coffee Shop.

NoGame
Man on the Prowl

AdamModerator
(crash course raver)
05/28/01 04:19 AM
The Zeroes Were Singing For You new [re: StrangeDrugs]  

In reply to:

This is a small thought I had the other day that seems to be slightly relevant...but probably isn't. Zero. 0. It's interesting that the symbol for nothing, zero, is a circle. Circles have no beginning and no end, go on forever yet never begin, like time that doesn't really exist.


That is very good. Now you have yourself a hypercycle.

Two Zero Zero Zero: the crossroads between the centuries.

Also, thanks to everyone who has taken the time to read this thread. I would like to insert an emoticon for [exhausted] here. Cheers!

zimmo
(grinning soul)
05/28/01 10:05 PM
two sides and a spiral up new [re: Adam]  

Have you ever thought about the two sides in this album like the voyeur of utter destruction opposing the architects eyes (architects construct)
the digging of the golden lesson in architects eyes opposit of -the hearts filthy lesson
i think the motel is the real lovesong being outside (a place of some hours real love, outside the sea of sham) and life being heard no hell like an old hell) the motel-- opposite of the hotel (--falls upon deaf ears-- hell)
explosion may be sexual? me exploding you? the odorless man is like a plastic man- a perfect photopuppet but unreal - i am deranged before we real?
the me exploding you sound of lighting up their lives and can be sexual as a solution revelation comes in the strangest way i better be inside you-- cruise the minotaur artist that suffers emotionally(bleeds) --voyeur of utter destruction -- the angelman is the zero as circle into a spiral up, new beginning?( animal state transforming into angelstate, destruction-- into architects eyes)
all the dreams in my minds eye realizing man himself is the builder of reality as creative being in balence with his animal state
all the souring days in our life - realizing all our friends now seem so thin and frail, thats the state of human compassion? the state of compassion for the victim the innocent baby grace of the flowers and the violent minded minotaur raining tears --no laugh hotel, who so becomes the angelman


AdamModerator
(crash course raver)
05/29/01 10:13 AM
Re: two sides and a spiral up new [re: zimmo]  

I like your translations, zimmo. The construction / destruction and innocence / violence is a certainty. And transformation, indeed leads back to the Angel Man.

One man is called the Angel Man.......he believed he was an angel and said, 'I was exactly who I was up until the 5th of February. 1948. And then I became an angel ... it was just after lunch.' And from that point, he believes that his old person disappeared and his angel took over him. He was totally reborn at that moment. - David Bowie on meeting Outsider Artists.

One minor point is the lyric "souring" which I think is "soaring", as in soaring buildings. The daily life of an architect driven by man's obsession to accomplish the tallest building in the world. As noted by power2charm, this was thwarted by God at Babel. Bowie describes Outside as a "perversion of catholic ritual", "a relish of pagan attitudes" and "driven by a pagan engine". It's not Eden but it's no sham. There is no hell and there is no sham.

Bowie also mentions "some kind of blood letting and possibly an unconscious effort to cleanse our souls before the end of the millennium"...."Something in our blood. Something in our skies. Oh Ramona, if there was only some kind of future"

Till there was rock, you only had god

zimmo
(grinning soul)
05/29/01 08:04 PM
Re: two sides and a spiral up new [re: Adam]  

these are just thoughts that have crossed my mind listeing to outside..

babel was a very ambitious project of human meglomania (making a building better then "god" could create way up into heaven) and the start of misunderstanding because after that all people started to speak different languages to one another and to their "gods" and were not able to understand one another anymore .
Perhaps the winter bleeding on the girdle of babel is because of the unableness to communicate well or not being heard by one another a communicative chaos, like in the heart filthy lesson it makes me think about an emotional isolement (being an outsider)
the stone( boy )is perhaps someone like ramoana a stone--- she was so cold ( cold winter bleeds) and perhaps also the stones of buildings too and the stomping is on the big ones or names, he is trying to give up and to leave that job but its hard when you know the monies from day to day and people are used to a certain way of life, he is trying to see what were the original dreams in his minds eye with which he wants to be another kind of realistic world builder to blow the other architects minds.
to be with name makes me think it means to be with fame too and all the applause
Adler makes me think of the psycho analyticus adler who was a well known one like freud and reich and jung and perhaps is chosen because of that for he has to sort out these deranged outsider art/crimes? and the motives behind it
cruel blood rituals were the crazy rituals used in many pagan and also christian religions perhaps they believed something or someone was sacrified to take all the dangers for other people upon it so all debt was payed to the gods so they were safe from danger themselves
someone or something (animal or human something inocent like a virgin or a lamb ) had to be sacrified to" get the gods in better moods,christ is the lamb, for the artgods perhaps it had to be baby grace


BTW i didnt like this scary diarystory in outside at all...
.. well its just art




eraserhead
(crash course raver)
01/23/02 12:33 PM
The Angel Man/the Damned Man new [re: Adam]  

Something kind of hit me today... I stumbled across a message on another message board, which talked about the old saying: "If you see the face of God you will die"...

In reply to:

It is no coincidence that Angel Man appears in this song [I'm Deranged].


Well, the connection between "Angel"/God and derangement is...I don't know, interesting? It says in the Bible: "If you see the face of God you will die". Perhaps "die" can be interpreted as: you will lose your mind, or you will lose yourself - your 'self' will fall apart and die.

I'm Deranged could be about a man who wants to be touched by God. But then we're humans and God is God, and we're not supposed to get too close to heaven. (Or so the Bible says.) The moment someone - anyone - sees the face of God, it's already too late. "No return" as Bowie sings. And what happens is that the person who has seen the face of God (the person who has become an "angel man" - which of course is a paradox in itself) this person becomes deranged. And then it's all downhill, so to speak: "I'm deranged down down down". Bowie sings about "the fist of love" which is also a paradox. (We usually think of Love as something good. ) To come too close to God/Love itself is like getting a fist in the face.

I'm not saying I subscribe to this belief (that if you see the face of God you will die) myself, but it's an old belief, it's an idea that goes back a long time, and therefore it's likely that Bowie, who's always struggled with the big questions, has thought about it. Maybe too much.




WildWind
(stardust savant)
01/23/02 06:08 PM
Buddhism/The Tibetan Book Of The Dead new [re: eraserhead]  

You say all that like death is inherently a bad thing. In Christian theology, isn't the ultimate goal to be in the Kingdom of Heaven with your Lord and Saviour, and can't you only do this by dying? "If you see the face of God, you will die" would seem to be good - you're casting off your sinning body and allowing your immortal soul to prosper in heaven.

But all that is just an aside to where I'm really going with this.

Your statement about losing your "self" is also interesting to me as it reminds me of Buddhist philosophy, where the goal is exactly that - to transcend the "self" and become one with everything (that reminds me of a joke, but I digress). In "Quicksand," a song that borrows heavily from The Tibetan Book of the Dead Bowie says that "knowledge comes with death's release."

If I remember correctly (and it's been quite a while since I've read it) The Tibetan Book Of The Dead also warns repeatedly that you can't get too sucked into any one level of transcendence before reaching the final bardo because to do so is to risk getting stuck there, and you can't mistake the oddities and even horrors inherent on the path to enlightenment for instanity. In other words, the line between enlightenment and insanity is very fine.

Adam said in the original post that "deranged" is not necessarily mad, but inspired/enlightened. Is it possible, however that the artist/Minotaur thinks he's mad? That he is misinterpreting those questionable signs of enlightenment as madness, and perhaps it is this that causes him to turn to art crime? Maybe the horrors that are inherent on the path to enlightenment so consume him that he is moved to create them.

The post above says that "Salaam" is an "Eastern" greeting - does anyone know with which part of the East it's associated?

Anyway, I don't know how well this fits in with the overall contextual interpretation, but I think the parallels need to be mentioned.

WW

- So, what you're saying is that you manipulated me.
- Yes, exactly.


eraserhead
(crash course raver)
01/24/02 05:06 AM
Really deep thoughts new [re: WildWind]  

I'm not saying death is a bad thing - I didn't express my personal beliefs, I just meant that according to the Bible, death should come when it's time, basically. If a young person gets too close to heaven/God, he gets "burned". You're not supposed to do what Icaros did. He flew too close to the sun (the Heaven/God) and his wings melted, and he plunged into the sea and died. He was too eager. I mean, if the door to Heaven would open that easily, I think many people would just want to die now, but since we're here in the first place, we should probably go through this life first.

Many are trying to get to heaven, "before they close the door" as they feel, because, they feel disconnected here. The esoteric knowledge, the mysteries beyond have always had a magic power over us. It's a balancing: we're supposed to live this Earth life, but at the same time we're not supposed to forget about the garden where there's always music in the air. Surely God knows that it's not easy for us, especially not for sensitive, artistic souls like The Artiste. As you say, WildWind, the line between enlightenment and insanity is very fine. The Bible mentions people who've seen the face of an Angel or God, and whenever that happens, the person becomes very frightened. He feels terrible. It's such a shock to him, and it must be very hard for him to go back to his normal life. The contrast is so huge. And that's why I think a lot of people become "deranged" - they can't cope in society, once they've seen a glimpse of Heaven.

As you say, Buddhism talks about losing your "self" and I think what Buddha "preached" is a very healthy "solution" to this dilemma: he is offering a middle way, basically. In Buddhism, to lose your self is not to get lost; it's to rest in peace, and that inner peace is something to fall back on in your daily struggles.






Tristan
(stardust savant)
01/24/02 12:53 PM
Made for Heaven. new [re: eraserhead]  

My kingdom does not belong to this world. (John 18:36)

Unhappiness on earth cultivates a hunger for heaven. By gracing us with a deep dissatisfaction, God holds our attention. The only tragedy, then, is to be satisfied prematurely. To settle for earth. To be content in a strange land....
We are not always happy here because we are not at home here. We are "like foreigners and strangers in this world." (1st Peter 2:11)....
You will have your moments of joy. You will catch glimpses of light. You will know moments or even days of peace. But they simply do not compare with the happiness that lies ahead.

From the book "Grace For The Moment."

Love And Anger ~ KB


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