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CAwesome
(wild eyed peoploid)
01/19/04 08:59 PM
Re: Is Bowie defying expectations with A Reality Tour? [re: eraserhead]  

OK, I was thinking about this while I was supposed to be paying attention in class and here's what I think:

David is an artist and the concerts are his exhibit. He wants to show the absolute best parts of his repotoire (sp?). A little bit of all his career. Or... something.



bowiefanpeter
(acolyte)
01/19/04 09:22 PM
Re: Is Bowie defying expectations with A Reality Tour? [re: CAwesome]  

I'll answer this question on Monday morning :-)

bfp



tv eye
(stardust savant)
01/19/04 11:25 PM
Re: Is Bowie defying expectations with A Reality Tour? [re: CAwesome]  

In reply to:

repotoire (sp?)



if.... you... can't.. spell it ... please....... just don't use it!!



SysiyoModerator
(thunder ocean)
01/20/04 04:12 AM
Re: Is Bowie defying expectations with A Reality Tour? [re: eraserhead]  

I can't say that I'd really know what Iggy has been up to of the late, but that is an odd comment for Bowie to say. He has just delivered two of his most 'retro' albums during the last few years. Let's face it, Heathen and Reality are the kinds of albums people would expect Bowie to make if isn't ch-ch-ch-ch-changing. They aren't bad albums (well, Heathen isn't ), but they aren't challenging. In the past (I presume, I only got into Bowie in summer 2000) each new Bowie albums was a challenge, it was different. Now, he's just doing what everyone expects him to do. This goes to both the albums as well as the Reality tour. Apart from the few 'challenge' songs the setlist was pretty mainstream, what the average music fans wanted.

The only way Bowie is defying expectations right now is by not changing.

KArt | Project Michelangelo | LiveJournal

eraserhead
(stardust savant)
01/20/04 06:17 AM
Good post Sysiyo [re: Sysiyo]  

You summed up my personal feelings. I can say that when I got into Bowie, he really did defy my expectations. I got into him for real just before Outside was released, autumn 1995. At that point I had only heard Let's Dance, which I loved. But Outside sure as hell defied all my expectations and pretty much blew me away. Earthling even more so, actually. The drum and bass sound was totally beyond what I was expecting, having listened to and admired the Nathan Adler diary/soundtrack. But I loved it (Earthling). The last three albums have not defied my expectations, except in the way that they were let downs.

But, yeah, like you say Sysiyo, it was an odd thing for Bowie to say at that point -- 2002 -- because at that point he'd just released his most retro album ever, and was planning a Greatest Hits tour. A year later, he released another mainstream album and went out on yet another mainstream "Greatest hits" world tour. If Bowie had made that comment in 1996, it would have made much more sense.





"I speak what yah weak mind lacks" -Missy Elliott


Dara
(acolyte)
01/20/04 06:45 AM
Sound revisionism [re: eraserhead]  

Bowie's been justly accused of revisionism in the past, and I think the same can be said of many posters here. People had all sorts of wild expectations for this tour, very few of which actually materialised, yet it seems to me to try to cling to the aura of cool some people are accusing Bowie of not defying expectations. By which I guess they must mean the expectations of others, not their own, since a look back at what they were predicting before the tour started shows that he has defied expectations.

The answer to your question is that Bowie is defying expectations. He's not doing this by satisfying the expectations of one group in defying the diametrically opposed expectations of another. Some people want Greatest Hits, some people want obscurities that were rarely if ever played before. Bowie's ploughing a middle ground between these two. Those expecting Greatest Hits (and anyone who thinks this is just a Greatest Hits tour either hasn't been paying attention to the setlists or has a very hazy knowledge of what his Greatest Hits are) are having their expectations defied by Sister Midnight, Fantastic Voyage, Battle For Britain, Loving The Alien, The Motel and the preponderance of Heathen material. Those hoping that Bowie would conform to their preconceptions of cool are having their expectations defied by his insistence on sticking with hits like Rebel and China Girl, and his inclusion of two Tonight and three Let's Dance songs.

So overall, Bowie is defying expectations, both of the general punter expecting the 20 biggest hits with 3 or 4 token newer ones, and of the more recent vintage of hardcore fan who thinks Outside and Earthling are the most exciting things he's done in decades.

Slan libh,

Dara

"What was the point of that In America movie? That only an inbred cretin would even think about going to live In America??" Fiona O'Kearney, 19/01/2004

eraserhead
(stardust savant)
01/20/04 07:18 AM
Re: Sound revisionism [re: Dara]  

In reply to:

So overall, Bowie is defying expectations, both of the general punter expecting the 20 biggest hits with 3 or 4 token newer ones, and of the more recent vintage of hardcore fan who thinks Outside and Earthling are the most exciting things he's done in decades.


But what you're essentially saying here is that more or less every artist is always defying expectations because there are so many different expectations, so many different people/fans. I guess I should have made it more clear that when I say "defying expectations" I'm thinking of the expectations of fans who own more than ChangesBowie or Best of Bowie. I was not thinking about the expectations of American housewives. I was also thinking more about defying expectations in a postive way. I may be surprised that he plays so many classics, but I wouldn't call that defying my expectations. Also, I'm not saying a show that is not defying expectations is a bad show, not at all. I think the Riverside show was quite good, and I'm sure I would have enjoyed the Stockholm concert as well (it sold out in three hours, so I didn't get a ticket).

I don't know what Iggy albums or Iggy tours Bowie was refering to, but since he said "last few years" I take it to mean Avenue B album + tour and Beat Em Up album + tour. One of those albums was a jazzy spoken word album that had a lot of soft ballads, the other one is a trashy hard rock album. Neither of these albums were playing to the gallery. The Avenue B tour was partly acoustic. In many cities, Iggy gave two shows: one night was all acoustic, the other one was a rock show. That was defying many fans' expectations/pissing them off. The Beat Em Up tour featured several old rock and roll classics like "Johnny B. Goode" and "Gloria" that he'd very seldom performed before. Also, most songs from the new album were played, and hits like "Lust For Life" were dropped. I don't want to get into yet another Iggy discussion, cause this thread's about Bowie, I'm just saying, the essence of what you're saying in your post above is that any show can be looked at as both "defying expectations" and "playing to the gallery", depending on who you ask.

But I can't help but thinking that opening every show on this world tour with "Rebel Rebel" is, well, a little bit below him. The impression one gets is that it's more about making easy money. Of all the songs Bowie has written, why does he have to choose "Rebel Rebel" as the opener, and "Ziggy Stardust" as the closer. I can't help but thinking it's below him.



"I speak what yah weak mind lacks" -Missy Elliott


EJSundayModerator
(acolyte)
01/20/04 07:49 AM
Not A Chart Show [re: Dara]  

In reply to:

anyone who thinks this is just a Greatest Hits tour either hasn't been paying attention to the setlists or has a very hazy knowledge of what his Greatest Hits are


Correct. And I think people here often confuse Bowie's Greatest Hits with Bowie's material of a stronger mainstream character. On the Heathen tour loads of songs from that very album were included - far from being hits but certainly quite accessible. Same goes for the "Reality" album on the current tour - fairly easy to get into but no Big Hits at all. He also featured "Low" on the 2002 tour - never a big seller.

With loads of "Heathen" and "Reality" stuff on the current list plus the songs Dara mentioned before we can hardly speak of a Greates Hits tour. That term was only correct for the poor "Sound & Vision" tour.


And I want to believe
In the madness that calls 'now'


gus_
(mortal with potential)
01/20/04 09:29 AM
Re: Not A Chart Show [re: EJSunday]  

I agree with Sysiyo the last two albums have been retro albums. I like both a lot, but I would rather see him experiment a lot more. My Heathen argument has always been of course you like the album; he made a 70ís style album that catered exactly to your taste. For everyone whoís been disillusioned with his 80ís and 90ís material this album gave them the perfect vehicle to jump back on the bandwagon.

Now, donít get me wrong I like both Heathen and Reality, but he is definitely playing to the Gallery with the last two releases.

Also, I saw Cleveland and Detroit and I absolutely loved both as both shows were just excellent, but they were greatest hits shows. Outside, Earthling and even the Hours tours were more risky tours. Sure, heís playing obscure ones, he always has with every tour hes done. Even Sound + Vision had Pretty Pink Rose, Alabama Song, Waiting for The Man and Queen Bitch. But, the obscure ones that he does play are far and in between. Sister Midnight and Battle For Britain are not every show occurrences. And remember Loving The Alien was a hit single, not an obscure song. Five Years is still a song everyone knows, because that is his biggest selling album, and everyone knows Ziggy songs. Fantastic Voyage is the only obscure song that is getting a regular rotation at his shows. And last, most (not all, but most) of the shows only have 3 Reality songs played. Heís not even stretching the concerts with his new material on this tour.

Anyway, I decided to go through the Detroit show and look at the set list. The main set had 22 songs. 16 of these songs were singles, out of the 16 one was Arnold Corns single (but, still a single), and one was done by Mott The Hoople (but, still a single). Also, Never Get Old, which was a scrapped single, could have jumped that number to 17 out of 22 if they had gone through with the single. Thatís a pretty big chunk of the show dedicated to his singles.

Even though I loved the shows, I would have to say he again is playing to the gallery.

Btw, I expected this type of tour before Reality even came out. Once he said a world tour, I knew he would have to be playing the hits because he would be visiting many cities that havenít seen him in a long time, and thatís what they would expect. Take Australia for example, the people are going to want the hits, why? because the average fan has never seen them live. If he didnít play Ziggy or Life On Mars?, etcÖ those people would be disappointed. But, of course the hard-core fans would love an obscure show, but they would be in the minority.




eraserhead
(stardust savant)
01/20/04 09:49 AM
Re: Not A Chart Show [re: gus_]  

In reply to:

gus' post


My thoughts exactly.

Even Glass Spider tour contained "obscure" songs, such as "All The Madmen", "Big Brother" and "Dancing With The Big Boys", but like "Battle For Britain" on this tour, they weren't played reguarly. Also, Serious Moonlight world tour had "Red Sails" and "Soul Love" and "TVC15". So, in Dara's and EJ's opinion, those tours weren't "playing to the gallery tours" either?



"I speak what yah weak mind lacks" -Missy Elliott



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