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BowieTalk
   >> Views and Questions
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EJSundayModerator
(acolyte)
02/10/04 07:20 AM
Re: More Lunacy From The TWer Without Any Clue [re: NoControl]  

So how do your figures prove the Phil Collins claim? Have you been to a show on this tour? Have you seen the people that go to see him? How do you know what else they here besides Bowie? From the internet?

And when do you answer my question about the Greatest Hits on the Dublin show?

And I want to believe
In the madness that calls 'now'


NoControl
(kook)
02/10/04 07:46 AM
Re: Out of your depth, completely [re: EJSunday]  

So how do your figures prove the Phil Collins claim?

Is that a joke? How many times do I have to go over this?

David Bowie is performing hits again. Hits he hasn't played in a long time, mostly since his commercial peak 15-20 years ago. Hs newer albums don't sell shit anymore. He hasn't had a gold studio album in the US since 1987! He hasn't had a multi-platinum album in the UK in ten years, etc. It doesn't take a genius to figure out that if he wasn't peforming the hits, he'd be performing to crickets, like he did in the majority of the 1990's. The numbers don't lie and they make this clear. The casual "Phil Collins" type fans make up the majority of the attendance for the A Reality tour for extremely obvious reasons. And if you can't see that, there's no way of showing you otherwise.

Have you been to a show on this tour?

Wtf? Of course I have. Isabelle "The Bunny" is my girlfriend. Ring any bells?

Have you seen the people that go to see him? How do you know what else they here besides Bowie? From the internet?

Wtf does that have to do with anything?


And when do you answer my question about the Greatest Hits on the Dublin show?

READ THE BOTTOM OF PAGE 11.

..and like BFP was saying, the Sound & Vision tour sets were shorter as opposed to this tour's. With your particular viewpiont, it's not a fair comparison. Apart from the obligatory new material he has to perform, take a look at the setlist after that and see for yourself how many hits per show there are...

...don't tell god your plans...

Edited by NoControl on 02/10/04 07:59 AM (server time).



EJSundayModerator
(acolyte)
02/10/04 08:24 AM
Too Narrow Minded [re: NoControl]  

I'll try again: half of the Dublin show were songs that were less known or new. So how does that half of the show cater for big hits? I do not compare this simple statistic to any other tour and have not done so before.

If you had seen the S&V tour you would see the difference in attitude between then and now. Regardless of statistics as it is not just what you play but also how you do it. Same goes for the hits on the "Outside" tour, but in a positive light compared to S&V.

As I said before, it is certainly not an adventurous event as the Outside tour was - it is mainly a balanced programm between all Bowie has stood for in the past decades. Hits included.

You are right that there are certainly people returning to seeing him whom he had lost before. That doesn't necessarily mean they are idiots and Collins fans. I'd rather say that he got many of those folks back that were into him up til Scary Monsters and probably through to "Let's Dance". At least here in Germany. Those people are probably a bit older than you and were drawn into his stuff by his 70s albums. Not the worst of music. And far from Collins pop.

The Collins factor in his audience is not necessarily determined by the number of people turning out to see him. In the late 70s he easily sold out the Deutschlandhalle, which was the largest indoor venue in Berlin at the time. On the "Outside" tour that hall was only about half full. Following your theories all those who packed the place in the late 70s (and all those who failed to get tickets) must have been into something similar to Phil Collins. But I am sure they were far more into what certainly was one of Bowie's best and most adventurous phases and not into any assumed mainstream pop. And they did not like that much what he was doing in the 90s.

They didn't go with him in such vast amounts during the "Outside" phase which may disqualify them in your view but certainly doesn't necessarily lead to Collins fanship.

The one thing that put Bowie massively back into the focus of his older fans (and hopefully a few younger ones as well) was definitely "Heathen". It sold sold very well in Germany after it got very postive reviews and after Bowie promoted it with TV appearances and the short tour.

I don't have figures to prove it but what I experienced at the four different Heathen/Reality gigs I saw in Germany was that it was those he had lost during the later 80s and with the Outside endeavours who returned to current shows. You may not share those people's taste but you can hardly call them Collins fans. And to get some proof beyond numbers go and listen to the Berlin Reality boot. And then come back and tell me the folks only got off on China Girl.

And I want to believe
In the madness that calls 'now'


NoControl
(kook)
02/10/04 05:30 PM
Re: Only hearing what you want to hear.. [re: EJSunday]  

I'll try again: half of the Dublin show were songs that were less known or new.

In this light, it's not a fair comparison to the Sound & Vision tour - as the sets were much shorter...

So how does that half of the show cater for big hits?
I do not compare this simple statistic to any other tour and have not done so before.


I've gone over this 18 million times! You should read what I'm saying.

If you had seen the S&V tour you would see the difference in attitude between then and now.

You can't be serious? Seeing people at a couple of German concerts as criteria for estimating how many people are into him now than before is the stupidest way of trying to figure out who's into his music at any given point in his career that I've ever heard.

Regardless of statistics as it is not just what you play but also how you do it.

You're bringing other factors into this which shouldn't be there and making things more confusing than they really are. I'm not talking about how the songs are performed, I'm talking about the hits that are played.

As I said before, it is certainly not an adventurous event as the Outside tour was - it is mainly a balanced programm between all Bowie has stood for in the past decades. Hits included.

I don't think so.

...That doesn't necessarily mean they are idiots and Collins fans.

I didn't say they were idiots. And I'm not saying that all of them are actual "Collins" fans because the phrase "Phil Collins" fans is a metaphor for commercially minded music consumers, obviously.

I'd rather say that he got many of those folks back that were into him up til Scary Monsters and probably through to "Let's Dance".

Well, the numbers show that much of the mid-eighties demographic is back.

At least here in Germany. Those people are probably a bit older than you and were drawn into his stuff by his 70s albums. Not the worst of music. And far from Collins pop.

That's debatable.


The Collins factor in his audience is not necessarily determined by the number of people turning out to see him.

Yes it is. The numbers don't lie.

In the late 70s he easily sold out the Deutschlandhalle, which was the largest indoor venue in Berlin at the time. On the "Outside" tour that hall was only about half full. Following your theories all those who packed the place in the late 70s (and all those who failed to get tickets) must have been into something similar to Phil Collins.

DB didn't have his "Phil Collins" audience until the eighties. On the Serious Moonlight tour DB sold out the Waldbuhne in Berlin to 22,500. The Deutschlandhalle holds around 10,000 and is much smaller - if there was that much more of a demand in '78, there would've been a second show.


But I am sure they were far more into what certainly was one of Bowie's best and most adventurous phases and not into any assumed mainstream pop. And they did not like that much what he was doing in the 90s.

Well, I'm sure that my socks were cleaned last night.

They didn't go with him in such vast amounts during the "Outside" phase which may disqualify them in your view but certainly doesn't necessarily lead to Collins fanship.

On the Outside tour, there were mostly to nearly all hard-core fans (excluding NIN's fan base).

The one thing that put Bowie massively back into the focus of his older fans (and hopefully a few younger ones as well) was definitely "Heathen". It sold sold very well in Germany after it got very postive reviews and after Bowie promoted it with TV appearances and the short tour.

So, all of his older fans got back into him on this tour because of one country's interest in a fairly new album???

I don't have figures to prove it but what I experienced at the four different Heathen/Reality gigs I saw in Germany was that it was those he had lost during the later 80s and with the Outside endeavours who returned to current shows. You may not share those people's taste but you can hardly call them Collins fans. And to get some proof beyond numbers go and listen to the Berlin Reality boot. And then come back and tell me the folks only got off on China Girl.

I didn't say they only got off on China Girl. And yeah, I know..those audience members were really shaking it to TMWSTW, The Lonliest Guy, Fantastic Voyage, Days, etc.! Give me a break!

...don't tell god your plans...

Edited by NoControl on 02/10/04 05:35 PM (server time).



EJSundayModerator
(acolyte)
02/10/04 05:43 PM
I Admit That I Wasted Time And Space Here [re: NoControl]  

I give up. You just can't see beyond your own little world of numbers. Be happy there.

I hand this discussion back to those who have more to say on the matter of this thread.

And I want to believe
In the madness that calls 'now'


NoControl
(kook)
02/10/04 05:46 PM
Re: I Admit That I Wasted Time And Space Here [re: EJSunday]  

Yeah, I know, facts and truth aren't that reliable, aren't they?

...don't tell god your plans...

pablopicasso
(kook)
02/10/04 06:04 PM
Re: I Admit That I Wasted Time And Space Here [re: NoControl]  

GO TO YOUR ROOMS NOW!!!!!!!!!!!
I warned you both!


So long child, it's awful dark
I never felt the sun
I dread to think of when
When the wind blows




EJSundayModerator
(acolyte)
02/10/04 06:12 PM
Boys Keep Arguing [re: pablopicasso]  

Hey, we already got our warning in that other thread. This is unfair. And don't touch my Teddy.

And I want to believe
In the madness that calls 'now'


dice
(every nation's refugee)
02/10/04 07:37 PM
Re: I Admit That I Wasted Time And Space Here [re: NoControl]  

let's go with basic logic:

-playing more hits than he did in the '90s does not make it a greatest hits tour. only a few hits have been added to the repotoire from the '90s tours!

-less hits are being performed on this tour than on the sound and vision tour DESPITE longer setlists

-PRACTICALLY EVERY SINGLE HIT was played on the sound and vision tour ON A NIGHTLY BASIS! that is the very definition of a greatest hits tour. the reality tour, on the other hand, plays some hits a lot, some hits occasionally, and some hits not at all

-fans expecting a greatest hits show on the reality tour would be somewhat disappointed

-the songs performed on sound and vision that aren't technically hits were still amongst his most popular songs. several songs on reality tour are less well-known, such as 'the motel'

-everyone can agree that his pre-'90s work is the most popular. the S&V tour featured entirely pre-90s material

-a tour featuring a significant amount of new material is not a greatest hits tour!!!

IF "GREATEST HITS" WAS DEFINED BY YOU, NEARLY EVERY TOUR OUT THERE WOULD BE A GREATEST HITS TOUR

ask a handful of people at the show if they're there because it's a greatest hits show. they'd either say no or look at you funny (although in your case i'm not sure you'd know the difference between that and the way they normally look at you)

-you're is the same crazy bastard that said something like 20% of the reality crowds would be there exclusively to see macy gray at the shows that she opened. maybe that's why attendance has spiked!

-you're also the same crazy bastard that said attendance is sometimes increased in part because the price goes up. maybe that's why attendance has spiked!

"eh, i'm not terribly interested in seeing bowie anymore"
"but...but...he's playing modern love and blue jean sometimes. and you can pay more this time! and MACY GRAY is opening!!!
"holy shit! count me in!!!

In reply to:

facts and truth aren't that reliable


the problem is that you use facts for something entirely different from the truth



show bush the door in 2004: please contribute to http://www.moveon.org
current approval rating: 51%

BillHague
(grinning soul)
02/10/04 08:38 PM
Re: I Admit That I Wasted Time And Space Here [re: dice]  

In reply to:

S&V tour featured entirely pre-90s material


ehrm, considering when the tour was, I would have thought that this was a given.




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