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eraserhead
(stardust savant)
01/19/04 03:39 PM
Is Bowie defying expectations with A Reality Tour?  

In July 2002, Bowie said, about Iggy Pop:

Not sure about this Charles Bukowski direction he's taken over the last few years. It's not defying expectations. It's playing to the gallery. I think he's got far greater potential than he allows himself. He just needs nudging in the right direction.

My question to TW, especally those of you who have seen Bowie live in 2003/2004 on the Reality Tour is:

Do you think that Bowie, with the Reality Tour, is defying expectations, or do you think he's playing to the gallery? Or is Reality Tour a little bit of both? Please, don't just answer "Yes, Reality Tour is defying expectations" or "Reality Tour is Bowie playing to the gallery" -- explain why you think he's defying expectations or playing to the gallery.



"I speak what yah weak mind lacks" -Missy Elliott


Beltene
(electric tomato)
01/19/04 03:52 PM
Re: Is Bowie defying expectations with A Reality Tour? new [re: eraserhead]  

Yes. Why?

Cause I fucken say so.

Psycho maniac interblend, shoot it up. Shoot it up now.


Jubany
(grinning soul)
01/19/04 04:10 PM
Re: Is Bowie defying expectations with A Reality Tour? new [re: Beltene]  

Bit of both... but that's how Bowie is...



Emil
(stardust savant)
01/19/04 04:19 PM
Why do you say that new [re: eraserhead]  

The songs on the album could have been better. But there is nothing wrong with the tour. This is just what we expect from the man and it's good. Not as adventurous as the Earthling tour. But good.



HelenaOfGale
(kook)
01/19/04 04:22 PM
Re: Is Bowie defying expectations with A Reality T new [re: eraserhead]  

I had hoped for something more edgy, to put it lightly, but that's a different thing than expecting something. So it all really depends on what the expectations were in the first place. What you mean, of course, is whether he's doing the jukebox thing again.

Not yet. Not completely. There are the pieces of resistance, after all, like The Motel and Sister Midnight. And there was fucking Modern Love!!

But I guess I never expected anything else than what I got.

On a long enough timeline, the survival rate for everyone drops to zero.

eraserhead
(stardust savant)
01/19/04 04:54 PM
Why do I say what? new [re: Emil]  

In reply to:

This is just what we expect from the man and it's good


So, what you're saying here Emil is that Bowie is NOT defying expectations, but that's okay?


In reply to:

What you mean, of course, is whether he's doing the jukebox thing again.


No, Helena, this is not really another "Isn't A Reality Tour just a Greatest Hits show" thread. What I'm thinking is, how can Bowie criticize Iggy for not "defying expectations" when he himelf is not defying anyone's expectations? At least not yours, or Emils. Or mine. You said, "I never expected anything else than what I got." And Emil just said that we get what we expect from the man. In other words, when Bowie criticizes Iggy for not defying expectations, he's really criticizing himself for not defying expectations! Or am I wrong?




"I speak what yah weak mind lacks" -Missy Elliott


tragicyouth
(wild eyed peoploid)
01/19/04 07:51 PM
Re: Is Bowie defying expectations with A Reality Tour? new [re: eraserhead]  

Let me just say this.....

yes.

mostly because this tour was the first time that I had ever seen him live, so my expectations weren't that great... but let me tell you something.... when you're a foot away from him and me's miming at you.... that's awesome...



diamondogz74
(electric tomato)
01/19/04 08:02 PM
Re: Is Bowie defying expectations with A Reality Tour? new [re: eraserhead]  

Well as i read it also,I see it differently to you,He was remarking on another persons show,Bowies shows defy this kind of criticism,What you are asking for is a black or white answer,There is NO black or white answer with a Bowie show,What you see is what you get,And what you get is what you see.

London Bye Ta-Ta...

dice
(every nation's refugee)
01/19/04 08:12 PM
Re: Is Bowie defying expectations with A Reality Tour? new [re: eraserhead]  

playing to the gallery. trying to be all things to all people

show bush the door in 2004: please contribute to http://www.moveon.org
current approval rating: 51%

dukewhite
(stealing for that one good rush)
01/19/04 08:19 PM
Re: Is Bowie defying expectations with A Reality T new [re: eraserhead]  

Having never seen any of his more theatrical or intricate sets or shows like Diamond Dogs or Glass Spider, with my only Bowie concert experiences being within the last two years, mainly with the stripped down Heathen set, I was expecting somethign a lot more flashy. Not saying the animations and video elements weren't such, but it was less than I expected. As far as the overall experience of the show it was equal to what I had invision the tour would be like, and I don't think his song selection is particularly edgy this tour. Sure, he's thrown in a few gems, like "Motel," "Sister Midnight," "Loving the Alien," and "Fantastic Voyage," but overall it really is just the other half of his greatest hits he left off last year. I feel like this is act II of the Heathen tour. But given the material he's been producing since Earthling, I don't think there's much "edginess" he can really pull off, unless he were to resurrect Ziggy or go back on the drugs. He's just at that point in his career where a new breakthrough might be wished for, but shouldn't be expected.

This is Dukewhite's Signature Side 2, hence it contains no words

CAwesome
(wild eyed peoploid)
01/19/04 08:59 PM
Re: Is Bowie defying expectations with A Reality Tour? new [re: eraserhead]  

OK, I was thinking about this while I was supposed to be paying attention in class and here's what I think:

David is an artist and the concerts are his exhibit. He wants to show the absolute best parts of his repotoire (sp?). A little bit of all his career. Or... something.



bowiefanpeter
(acolyte)
01/19/04 09:22 PM
Re: Is Bowie defying expectations with A Reality Tour? new [re: CAwesome]  

I'll answer this question on Monday morning :-)

bfp



tv eye
(stardust savant)
01/19/04 11:25 PM
Re: Is Bowie defying expectations with A Reality Tour? new [re: CAwesome]  

In reply to:

repotoire (sp?)



if.... you... can't.. spell it ... please....... just don't use it!!



SysiyoModerator
(thunder ocean)
01/20/04 04:12 AM
Re: Is Bowie defying expectations with A Reality Tour? new [re: eraserhead]  

I can't say that I'd really know what Iggy has been up to of the late, but that is an odd comment for Bowie to say. He has just delivered two of his most 'retro' albums during the last few years. Let's face it, Heathen and Reality are the kinds of albums people would expect Bowie to make if isn't ch-ch-ch-ch-changing. They aren't bad albums (well, Heathen isn't ), but they aren't challenging. In the past (I presume, I only got into Bowie in summer 2000) each new Bowie albums was a challenge, it was different. Now, he's just doing what everyone expects him to do. This goes to both the albums as well as the Reality tour. Apart from the few 'challenge' songs the setlist was pretty mainstream, what the average music fans wanted.

The only way Bowie is defying expectations right now is by not changing.

KArt | Project Michelangelo | LiveJournal

eraserhead
(stardust savant)
01/20/04 06:17 AM
Good post Sysiyo new [re: Sysiyo]  

You summed up my personal feelings. I can say that when I got into Bowie, he really did defy my expectations. I got into him for real just before Outside was released, autumn 1995. At that point I had only heard Let's Dance, which I loved. But Outside sure as hell defied all my expectations and pretty much blew me away. Earthling even more so, actually. The drum and bass sound was totally beyond what I was expecting, having listened to and admired the Nathan Adler diary/soundtrack. But I loved it (Earthling). The last three albums have not defied my expectations, except in the way that they were let downs.

But, yeah, like you say Sysiyo, it was an odd thing for Bowie to say at that point -- 2002 -- because at that point he'd just released his most retro album ever, and was planning a Greatest Hits tour. A year later, he released another mainstream album and went out on yet another mainstream "Greatest hits" world tour. If Bowie had made that comment in 1996, it would have made much more sense.





"I speak what yah weak mind lacks" -Missy Elliott


Dara
(acolyte)
01/20/04 06:45 AM
Sound revisionism new [re: eraserhead]  

Bowie's been justly accused of revisionism in the past, and I think the same can be said of many posters here. People had all sorts of wild expectations for this tour, very few of which actually materialised, yet it seems to me to try to cling to the aura of cool some people are accusing Bowie of not defying expectations. By which I guess they must mean the expectations of others, not their own, since a look back at what they were predicting before the tour started shows that he has defied expectations.

The answer to your question is that Bowie is defying expectations. He's not doing this by satisfying the expectations of one group in defying the diametrically opposed expectations of another. Some people want Greatest Hits, some people want obscurities that were rarely if ever played before. Bowie's ploughing a middle ground between these two. Those expecting Greatest Hits (and anyone who thinks this is just a Greatest Hits tour either hasn't been paying attention to the setlists or has a very hazy knowledge of what his Greatest Hits are) are having their expectations defied by Sister Midnight, Fantastic Voyage, Battle For Britain, Loving The Alien, The Motel and the preponderance of Heathen material. Those hoping that Bowie would conform to their preconceptions of cool are having their expectations defied by his insistence on sticking with hits like Rebel and China Girl, and his inclusion of two Tonight and three Let's Dance songs.

So overall, Bowie is defying expectations, both of the general punter expecting the 20 biggest hits with 3 or 4 token newer ones, and of the more recent vintage of hardcore fan who thinks Outside and Earthling are the most exciting things he's done in decades.

Slan libh,

Dara

"What was the point of that In America movie? That only an inbred cretin would even think about going to live In America??" Fiona O'Kearney, 19/01/2004

eraserhead
(stardust savant)
01/20/04 07:18 AM
Re: Sound revisionism new [re: Dara]  

In reply to:

So overall, Bowie is defying expectations, both of the general punter expecting the 20 biggest hits with 3 or 4 token newer ones, and of the more recent vintage of hardcore fan who thinks Outside and Earthling are the most exciting things he's done in decades.


But what you're essentially saying here is that more or less every artist is always defying expectations because there are so many different expectations, so many different people/fans. I guess I should have made it more clear that when I say "defying expectations" I'm thinking of the expectations of fans who own more than ChangesBowie or Best of Bowie. I was not thinking about the expectations of American housewives. I was also thinking more about defying expectations in a postive way. I may be surprised that he plays so many classics, but I wouldn't call that defying my expectations. Also, I'm not saying a show that is not defying expectations is a bad show, not at all. I think the Riverside show was quite good, and I'm sure I would have enjoyed the Stockholm concert as well (it sold out in three hours, so I didn't get a ticket).

I don't know what Iggy albums or Iggy tours Bowie was refering to, but since he said "last few years" I take it to mean Avenue B album + tour and Beat Em Up album + tour. One of those albums was a jazzy spoken word album that had a lot of soft ballads, the other one is a trashy hard rock album. Neither of these albums were playing to the gallery. The Avenue B tour was partly acoustic. In many cities, Iggy gave two shows: one night was all acoustic, the other one was a rock show. That was defying many fans' expectations/pissing them off. The Beat Em Up tour featured several old rock and roll classics like "Johnny B. Goode" and "Gloria" that he'd very seldom performed before. Also, most songs from the new album were played, and hits like "Lust For Life" were dropped. I don't want to get into yet another Iggy discussion, cause this thread's about Bowie, I'm just saying, the essence of what you're saying in your post above is that any show can be looked at as both "defying expectations" and "playing to the gallery", depending on who you ask.

But I can't help but thinking that opening every show on this world tour with "Rebel Rebel" is, well, a little bit below him. The impression one gets is that it's more about making easy money. Of all the songs Bowie has written, why does he have to choose "Rebel Rebel" as the opener, and "Ziggy Stardust" as the closer. I can't help but thinking it's below him.



"I speak what yah weak mind lacks" -Missy Elliott


EJSundayModerator
(acolyte)
01/20/04 07:49 AM
Not A Chart Show new [re: Dara]  

In reply to:

anyone who thinks this is just a Greatest Hits tour either hasn't been paying attention to the setlists or has a very hazy knowledge of what his Greatest Hits are


Correct. And I think people here often confuse Bowie's Greatest Hits with Bowie's material of a stronger mainstream character. On the Heathen tour loads of songs from that very album were included - far from being hits but certainly quite accessible. Same goes for the "Reality" album on the current tour - fairly easy to get into but no Big Hits at all. He also featured "Low" on the 2002 tour - never a big seller.

With loads of "Heathen" and "Reality" stuff on the current list plus the songs Dara mentioned before we can hardly speak of a Greates Hits tour. That term was only correct for the poor "Sound & Vision" tour.


And I want to believe
In the madness that calls 'now'


gus_
(mortal with potential)
01/20/04 09:29 AM
Re: Not A Chart Show new [re: EJSunday]  

I agree with Sysiyo the last two albums have been retro albums. I like both a lot, but I would rather see him experiment a lot more. My Heathen argument has always been of course you like the album; he made a 70ís style album that catered exactly to your taste. For everyone whoís been disillusioned with his 80ís and 90ís material this album gave them the perfect vehicle to jump back on the bandwagon.

Now, donít get me wrong I like both Heathen and Reality, but he is definitely playing to the Gallery with the last two releases.

Also, I saw Cleveland and Detroit and I absolutely loved both as both shows were just excellent, but they were greatest hits shows. Outside, Earthling and even the Hours tours were more risky tours. Sure, heís playing obscure ones, he always has with every tour hes done. Even Sound + Vision had Pretty Pink Rose, Alabama Song, Waiting for The Man and Queen Bitch. But, the obscure ones that he does play are far and in between. Sister Midnight and Battle For Britain are not every show occurrences. And remember Loving The Alien was a hit single, not an obscure song. Five Years is still a song everyone knows, because that is his biggest selling album, and everyone knows Ziggy songs. Fantastic Voyage is the only obscure song that is getting a regular rotation at his shows. And last, most (not all, but most) of the shows only have 3 Reality songs played. Heís not even stretching the concerts with his new material on this tour.

Anyway, I decided to go through the Detroit show and look at the set list. The main set had 22 songs. 16 of these songs were singles, out of the 16 one was Arnold Corns single (but, still a single), and one was done by Mott The Hoople (but, still a single). Also, Never Get Old, which was a scrapped single, could have jumped that number to 17 out of 22 if they had gone through with the single. Thatís a pretty big chunk of the show dedicated to his singles.

Even though I loved the shows, I would have to say he again is playing to the gallery.

Btw, I expected this type of tour before Reality even came out. Once he said a world tour, I knew he would have to be playing the hits because he would be visiting many cities that havenít seen him in a long time, and thatís what they would expect. Take Australia for example, the people are going to want the hits, why? because the average fan has never seen them live. If he didnít play Ziggy or Life On Mars?, etcÖ those people would be disappointed. But, of course the hard-core fans would love an obscure show, but they would be in the minority.




eraserhead
(stardust savant)
01/20/04 09:49 AM
Re: Not A Chart Show new [re: gus_]  

In reply to:

gus' post


My thoughts exactly.

Even Glass Spider tour contained "obscure" songs, such as "All The Madmen", "Big Brother" and "Dancing With The Big Boys", but like "Battle For Britain" on this tour, they weren't played reguarly. Also, Serious Moonlight world tour had "Red Sails" and "Soul Love" and "TVC15". So, in Dara's and EJ's opinion, those tours weren't "playing to the gallery tours" either?



"I speak what yah weak mind lacks" -Missy Elliott


gus_
(mortal with potential)
01/20/04 09:50 AM
Re: Not A Chart Show new [re: gus_]  

LOL! last night he played 7 Reality songs, so that throws out my argument about his new songs. :-)

but, that argument used to hold true. LOL!



Si_rocks
(kook)
01/20/04 09:54 AM
Not Defying new [re: eraserhead]  

Bowie isn't defying any expectations, some could argue that Hallo Spaceboy and The Motel are not as popular as the rest of his back catalogue, but they should great live and therefore will make people stand up and listen. Nonetheless, Bowie does not need (or I presume, want) to defy any expectations. Why would he?

His last three albums have been good, made him more commercially viable and he's happy in what he's doing. Therefore, while it's not defying any expectations he's on a superb and hugely enjoyable tour. I'd rather see him like this now than pretending to be 'happening' and doing something unexpected.

Who needs talent these days if you make out with your friend on stage? - Rabbitfighter

EJSundayModerator
(acolyte)
01/20/04 10:54 AM
Minstrel In The Gallery new [re: eraserhead]  

In reply to:

So, in Dara's and EJ's opinion, those tours weren't "playing to the gallery tours" either?


I am not so sure if you can easily devide Bowie's audiences into gallery and not. What am I then? I never liked "The Motel" much but was overjoyed when I got "A New Carrer In A New Town". Is the re-appearance of "Five Years" a play for the gallery or a feast for the true fan - or must I only praise "Fantastic Voyage" when "All The Young Dudes" was tremendous as well? Where do we put "Hallo Spaceboy" and "I Am Afraid Of Americans"? And what's more gallery?Heathen tour`s "Alabama Song" or this time's "TMWSTW"?

In the end I would simply say Bowie is doing his best to enjoy a crowd pretty diverse in what they want from him - plus he has a few musical statements he seems to be doing for himself and the band. Fine by me. And few of his other tours were different. From those "Sound & Vision" was the disaster on one end, "Outside/Earthling" the adventure on the other. Both concepts would never have brought him back to where he is now again: A major rock star who still has something to say and play, filling major venues world wide. Some may not like that but I think he is pretty okay with that. And so am I.

And I want to believe
In the madness that calls 'now'


dice
(every nation's refugee)
01/20/04 01:32 PM
Re: Is Bowie defying expectations with A Reality Tour? new [re: CAwesome]  

In reply to:

He wants to show the absolute best parts of his repotoire (sp?)


then why doesn't he?!

performance is an artform too, you know. and being boring is not good art

i can understand a lack of variety if the production is more theatrical, as with diamond dogs, glass spider, etc. but not this time around, i'm afraid

show bush the door in 2004: please contribute to http://www.moveon.org
current approval rating: 51%

SysiyoModerator
(thunder ocean)
01/20/04 03:20 PM
Re: Sound revisionism new [re: Dara]  

I'm overjoyed by the fact that eraserhead agreed with me.

In reply to:

inclusion of two Tonight and three Let's Dance songs.


OK, seems I haven't been following the news. What is the second Tonight number (Blue Jean, presumably), and when was it played?

And should I have high hopes that he'll play Time will Crawl on the next tour?

KArt | Project Michelangelo | LiveJournal

Claude
(big brother)
01/20/04 04:17 PM
Re: Is Bowie defying expectations with A Reality Tour? new [re: eraserhead]  

"Reality Tour" is a wonderful show...... but he have to pay his Bowie Bonds!

___________________
Claude

eraserhead
(stardust savant)
01/20/04 06:21 PM
Re: Is Bowie defying expectations with A Reality Tour? new [re: Claude]  

In reply to:

"Reality Tour" is a wonderful show...... but he have to pay his Bowie Bonds!


Best comment so far. You summed it up very well, Claude.



"I speak what yah weak mind lacks" -Missy Elliott


SoulLoveChild
(stardust savant)
01/20/04 06:22 PM
Re: Is Bowie defying expectations with A Reality T new [re: dice]  

In reply to:

performance is an artform too, you know. and being boring is not good art

i can understand a lack of variety if the production is more theatrical, as with diamond dogs, glass spider, etc. but not this time around, i'm afraid


What part of the setlist is not good variety? I think the span of albums covered and songs is great for a world tour. Jeez, he could be playing the ChangesOneBowie album from start to end inbetween the whole Reality album, but he's not.

Bowie himself said he KNOWS the hardcore fans (of which there actually are very few of us really, compared to everyone who will see him this tour) don't want to hear China Girl again. And then he said Stuff them, I LOVE playing China Girl, it's my song and I'll play it until I get sick of it.

Anyways, Dice, which show did you attend to conclude that this tour is so boring?

Bowie in Australia February 2004
the wait is almost over

pablopicasso
(wild eyed peoploid)
01/20/04 06:58 PM
Re: Is Bowie defying expectations with A Reality T new [re: SoulLoveChild]  

I haven't seen the reality tour, i have heard some boots and I think the setlist is great, remember most people will be seeing this concert once, so variety between nights is not that big an issue, but he does seem to be enjoying himself and as has been mentioned this is a WORLD tour so he is playing to a lot of people who hasn't seen him for years, so why not "play to the gallery " they are paying to see him, and there does seem to be lots of obscure songs, and just cos comething was a single don't mean it aint obscure there are probably lots of people who haven't even heard of "All the young dudes".
You can please some of the people all of the time,
You can please all of the people some of the time,
but you cannot please all the people all the time.


She's so swishy in her satin and tat,
and her frock coat and bippety boppety hat

dice
(every nation's refugee)
01/20/04 07:20 PM
Re: Is Bowie defying expectations with A Reality T new [re: SoulLoveChild]  

i didn't have to attend a show to know it was boring

show bush the door in 2004: please contribute to http://www.moveon.org
current approval rating: 51%

jabow
(kook)
01/20/04 07:27 PM
Re: Is Bowie defying expectations with A Reality T new [re: dice]  

Reality tour is good but the Outside and earthling tours were better.

"You'll have to take me just the way that you find me."


SoulLoveChild
(stardust savant)
01/21/04 01:47 AM
dice didn't defy expectations either new [re: dice]  

In reply to:

i didn't have to attend a show to know it was boring


Your personal opinioin in this thread (and all current tour threads) is invalid then .

I personally will not say the tour is fantastic until I have seen it next month. And I will not be blindly saying it is, I'll be open to criticize it if necessary. By all reports, everyone's being blown away by the quality of the shows. It's not the [..... insert fave] tour, you can't compare or expect him to go back to where he was again.

Bowie in Australia February 2004
the wait is almost over

Nature_Boy
(kook)
01/21/04 05:11 AM
Re: Is Bowie defying expectations with A Reality Tour? new [re: eraserhead]  

What a great discussion thread.

I was really looking forward to The Motel when I went to the Wembley gig last year. But my enjoyment was tarnished a bit, because people were leaving the arena in droves to go for a toilet stop! And you really felt sorry for Bowie, just like the Dandy Warhols playing to a half full arena earlier on.

My own enjoyment was very much crowd influenced. Everyone going nuts for Life On Mars? was magic, as was everyone singing All The Young Dudes.

Just like every other hardcore fan hear I would like to hear him singing the deepest darkest obscurists corners of his back catalgue, but I also want Bowie and the rest of the audience to enjoy themselves too.

Five Years seems to occupy a strange place. It was certainly well received probably because (as has already been said) its attached to one of his biggest and well known albums. So a bit of best of both worlds in that one.




Its about time I had a signature

Dara
(acolyte)
01/21/04 05:59 AM
Re: Sound revisionism new [re: eraserhead]  

In reply to:

But what you're essentially saying here is that more or less every artist is always defying expectations because there are so many different expectations, so many different people/fans.


No. Most fanbases are a lot more homogenous than Bowie's. Back in the days when I was an Iggy fan and hung around his Usenet newsgroup, it always struck me how incredibly homogenous it was. That makes it pretty easy to please. Iggy pretty much just has to go on stage topless, jump around, pull a few faces, drop his pants, shout the songs, and they're as happy as pigs in shit.

I presume that's what Bowie meant by his Iggy comment. Iggy is now a stage weirdo, the living stereotype of what a "wild man of rock" should be in the eyes of the mainstream. He couldn't play the role more perfectly if he had gotten Steven Spielberg in to write the script.

By contrast, there's Johnny Lydon (Rotten). He's getting boos from the usual "Sellout!" brigade of dullards for going on crappy reality TV programme "I'm A Celebrity Get Me Out Of Here" right now. Presumably they just want him to be Johnny Rotten '77 for the rest of his life.

In reply to:

I was also thinking more about defying expectations in a postive way


And I guess like most people you define positive as "stuff I like".

I suppose the most shocking thing Bowie ever did was Ziggy and the whole "I'm gay" thing. It's easy enough to shock and defy expectations when you're unknown. You just have to stand out from what's around. Ziggy was absorbed into the mainstream within a year and just became the latest manifestation of stage gender play. So Bowie did the next most shocking thing he could do - retire him at his peak. Then more personas. Thereafter, he starts to be pigeonholed as "weird persona guy" or "weirdo who changes his do and look every album". By the end of the 70s, he was on his way to becoming the cliche that every other major figure in rock and pop ended up as.

So by "going mainstream" in 1983, he was doing absolutely the most surprising and shocking thing he could do at that point. The tactics may have been mundane - tone down the sexuality, blonde up the image, put on a suit, do some warm dance pop rock - but the overall change of strategy was genuinely surprising. Everyone was expecting an album like "Vampires Of Human Flesh" with a dark Goth underbelly. Bowie defied their expectations by giving them its polar opposite.

The older you get, the harder it is to shock. We've seen all the tricks before, so they shouldn't surprise us. Yet some fans seem genuinely surprised by Bowie's "negative" partial retreat into the mainstream after a mid 90s spent making deliberately contrary albums. They apparently expected him to continue doing that till he died - making stage weird albums, playing smaller, sorry, "more intimate" venues every tour to the same aging faces, settling for the cosy life of the cult artist with his adoring fanbase who will continue to adore him so long as he gives them what they expect and doesn't try to appeal to those they perceive as outsiders.

Some artists spend their entire careers chasing the mainstream, changing in any way they need to appeal to American housewives as you call them. Others spend an entire career appealing only to their own cult. Both artistic straightjackets are as confining as the other.

And that ain't what Bowie's about.

Slan libh,

Dara

"What was the point of that In America movie? That only an inbred cretin would even think about going to live In America??" Fiona O'Kearney, 19/01/2004

EJSundayModerator
(acolyte)
01/21/04 07:00 AM
Standards And Changes new [re: Dara]  

In reply to:

Iggy pretty much just has to go on stage topless, jump around, pull a few faces, drop his pants, shout the songs, and they're as happy as pigs in shit.


Exactly. I loved Iggy for being the standard Iggy a very long time. Then I left Iggy for still being standard Iggy many years later. Another while later I bought "Avenue B" as it wasn't standard Iggy. And I liked it. Didn't by the next albums - too standard.

Bowie has produced many things I don't like. I even got close to giving up on him. But then again he never made me lose interest - neither in his records nor in his shows. As said before: Diversity is crucial to his career and so it does make a lot of sense to harbour diverse aspects of his career in his shows. And that's not necessarily only those which please little EJ.

And I want to believe
In the madness that calls 'now'


Si_rocks
(kook)
01/21/04 08:39 AM
Re: Standards And Changes new [re: EJSunday]  

Hmm, the only more obscure songs I really want to hear are Teenage Wildlife, Sons of the Silent Age, Sweet Thing medley and Moknage Daydream. Other than that I was as happy as a pig in doodoo.

Who needs talent these days if you make out with your friend on stage? - Rabbitfighter

Emil
(stardust savant)
01/21/04 09:24 AM
too bad he didn't do it in Helsinki then new [re: Sysiyo]  

In reply to:

What is the second Tonight number (Blue Jean, presumably), and when was it played?


unless you already found out, your question was answered in the Denver thread here - Blue Jean was indeed played there.

Where are those song statistics that used to be regularly posted here for a while??



eraserhead
(stardust savant)
01/21/04 10:06 AM
here's my theory new [re: Dara]  

In reply to:

Back in the days when I was an Iggy fan and hung around his Usenet newsgroup, it always struck me how incredibly homogenous it was. That makes it pretty easy to please.


Iggy's fanbase is not that homogenous, but, yeah, probably more so than Bowie's. But if you look closer, there are, you know, different fractions. There's been a hot debate on various boards on whether or not Iggy's a whore now for having recorded with Sum 41. The fanbase is equally divided into two camps. 50% say they've lost respect for him, while the rest say the song is great and that's all that matters. There's also a lot of hardcore fans that hate the last touring band he had, before the Stooges reunited. So they are another camp. There's also Iggy fans who can stand Bowie and those who can't. But, yeah, I'm not denying that for me to be as happy as a pig in shit, as you so elegantly put it, Iggy just has to, well, go on stage, basically. Topless or not, doesn't really matter. Drop his pants, doesn't really matter either. But jump around, pull a few faces, shout the songs, that's basically all I want, and then I'm a happy pig. And I'm not ashamed to admit it.
As Bowie put it, in the same interview (from July 2002): "I saw him only from the back as I was playing piano for him [...] I couldn't get over his energy and his commitment to savage realism."
Same here. The simplicity, the energy and the savage realism is what I love.


In reply to:

I presume that's what Bowie meant by his Iggy comment. Iggy is now a stage weirdo, the living stereotype of what a "wild man of rock" should be in the eyes of the mainstream. He couldn't play the role more perfectly if he had gotten Steven Spielberg in to write the script.

By contrast, there's Johnny Lydon (Rotten). He's getting boos from the usual "Sellout!" brigade of dullards for going on crappy reality TV programme "I'm A Celebrity Get Me Out Of Here" right now. Presumably they just want him to be Johnny Rotten '77 for the rest of his life.


So when Iggy goes mainstream, he's uninteresting, or whatever term you prefer, but when Jonny Rotten goes mainstream, you're applauding him? I don't see the difference, expect that it took Jonny Rotten 30 years to go mainstream. Iggy went mainstream a long time ago. The only thing that has changed is your percecption or appreciation of it, because he's been the "wild man of rock" since day one, as far as I'm concerned. It's just that now more people are appreciting what he's doing, and giving him credit for it, and that's why people like you and EJ walk out of him. It was okay to support him when nobody else did, except for Bowie, but now he's getting too big already. No offense, I'm just speculating. :)

I agree that the transformation Bowie went though around '82-'83 was probably the most surprising move of his career. Most Bowie experts say it was a conscious descision though, it was a strategy plan, to make up for all the bad contracts he'd been under. It was Bowie's way of earning back all the money he'd lost while experimenting in the 70s. Then when that mission was accomplished and he was a rich man, he went back to creating art in the late 80s. So the 80s was just an exception. You make it sound like it was Bowie getting old and wise, not wanting to be hip and happening, or caring about experimenting anymore. I don't think it was that he "matured", I just think he wanted to finance another decade of art experiments (the 90s). Throughout the 90s he was busy being '70s Bowie' again. How we should interpret these last few years (2000-2003), I'm not completely sure. Maybe Claude's right and it's again money that is dictating his descisions. At least I find that a more likely reason for what he's doing now than the reason you've put forward -- that Bowie has matured, he has "found himself" and have realized that he doesn't want to be a weirdo anymore, he just wants to be a family kind of guy, with no edge and no danger, he just wants to entertain American housewives by playing "Rebel Rebel" and "China Girl" over and over again, because that's the kind of guy he really is. Well, I don't buy it.

But, again, I'm not saying these shows he's giving nowadays, are terrible or even bad. I'm sure you, Dara, and EJ, are enjoying them, and I probably would enjoy them a bit as well, I'm just saying there's not a lot of "otherness" or vision or darkness in these shows. And "otherness", vision, and darkness, that's what Bowie's been about throughout his career, except for the periods where he felt he needed to make some money to help finance further artistic investigations.





"I speak what yah weak mind lacks" -Missy Elliott

Edited by eraserhead on 01/21/04 10:12 AM (server time).



Dara
(acolyte)
01/21/04 10:26 AM
Re: here's my theory new [re: eraserhead]  

In reply to:

At least I find that a more likely reason for what he's doing now than the reason you've put forward -- that Bowie has matured, he has "found himself" and have realized that he doesn't want to be a weirdo anymore, he just wants to be a family kind of guy, with no edge and no danger, he just wants to entertain American housewives by playing "Rebel Rebel" and "China Girl" over and over again, because that's the kind of guy he really is.


Where did I put forward that theory?

You haven't understood my point at all, and I don't really see what I can say to clarify, other perhaps than "reread my post".

Slan duit,

Dara

"What was the point of that In America movie? That only an inbred cretin would even think about going to live In America??" Fiona O'Kearney, 19/01/2004

EJSundayModerator
(acolyte)
01/21/04 11:05 AM
I Am Too Old For Retro new [re: eraserhead]  

In reply to:

now he's getting too big already.


In which country exactly is that happening? Here in Germany Iggy is a complete nobody these days. Of course he can rely on his old laurels and his old fans (myself included) will always stay loyal to him - as he once was a very special, very fine musician who gave a lot to us. But those were the days. Iggy was big (or biggish rather) here from the late 70s through to the very early 90s. From the days punk and Bowie brought him back to light up to the Brick By Brick aftermath. That's when he peaked - in reputation, following and probably in financial success. From then on it was a downhill trip.

Things are probably different when you have been living with Iggy on a different time line than the one I (and probably Dara) have been on. The first time I got interested in Iggy was in the late 70s when I heard the Sex Pistols play a song called "No Fun". I was told by a friend that this incredible number was actually from a guy called Iggy Pop who was supposed to be the inventor of punk rock. Got infected. I bought a cheap vinyl copy of "Raw Power" in my home town's only record shop, a "Search & Destroy" T-Shirt on a flea market in Groningen/Holland and got even more excited when I found out that this guy was doing a new record with David Bowie. I taped "The Idiot" and later "Lust For Live" and turned into a solid Iggy supporter for a very long time.

But then things started to fade. Iggy turned self-retro. Without going into detail and also knowing that you will come up with proof how different albums like "American Cesar" and "Naughty Little Doggy" are, I got bored with Iggy. First I stopped going to his shows, though the ones I had seen were always fantastic. After "Avenue B", which I quite like, I also stopped buying his albums. I felt like I didn't need more standstill - not from an artist like Iggy.

That's where I am today but I am sure things are very different when you are much younger. You do detect his old stuff at once - it comes as an entity, not as a linear (downward) development. The sound you get from the newer albums appears fresh, wild and lively as you had not been going through that sound a long time before. At a time when that sound was indeed fresh, wild and lively. One may call it the Pink Floyd symptom.

Don't get me wrong. Iggy will always be one of my heroes and the described fate was similarily shared by my even bigger heroes "The Ramones". You may well credit people like them for not giving up on what they have done and stood for all their lives. But on the other hand those musical die hards later hardly ever give you more reasons for affection than nostalgia. Because they have done what they are still doing far better before, at a time when their music was part of the real life, when their music was a result of those times. And not a late reflection of things long changed.

Bowie got close to that dead lock but never got fully caught. The "Sound & Vision" tour, BTWN and "Outside" where moments when he hadn't got a clue about where to go as David Bowie and started to repeat his own recipes with little adjustments. But he got out. And that's why he is still there. Big. Mighty Big.

And I want to believe
In the madness that calls 'now'


eraserhead
(stardust savant)
01/21/04 12:14 PM
You guys are so old! new [re: EJSunday]  

Ok, I re-read your post Dara and here's what I make of it now. What you're saying here:

In reply to:

The older you get, the harder it is to shock. We've seen all the tricks before, so they shouldn't surprise us. Yet some fans seem genuinely surprised by Bowie's "negative" partial retreat into the mainstream after a mid 90s spent making deliberately contrary albums.


...is that Bowie, now an old man, is finding it hard to shock people these days. All the tricks have been played, there's nothing more he could do that would surprise us. He's run out of gas, so to speak. The last time he brought forward a new, "contrary" idea/album was in 1997 with Earthling. Now that is over, that was the last new idea, that was the last trick, the last contrary album. And yet some fans (this one for example) seem surprised by this, that Bowie has to retreat back to the mainstream. Did I get it right this time?


In reply to:

EJSunday: I got bored with Iggy


That's totally OK. I never intended this to be a thread about Iggy Pop, he was just mentioned in the quote by Bowie, but this thread was really about Bowie. I'm okay with you getting bored with Iggy. Also, I've been into Iggy for about 11 years, it's not like I got into him yesterday.

But I do understand what you're saying about giving up on artists, or them giving up on your, or however you want to put it. I actually was a huge Tori Amos fan in the mid 90s, but then she released a very bad album in 1998, and followed that one up with three or four even worse albums, well, not really, but that's how I felt, so we lost contact, so to speak.

Yesterday I burned myself a Tori Amos best of CD, and decided to put one new song of hers on it, which was from the last Tori album I bought (in 2001), and, to my surprise, I liked it almost as much as some of the older, classic tracks, that got me into her. I thought that was interesting.

I almost fell out of love with Frank Black two years ago. He was my second favourite artist for a great while in the 90s and earrly 00s, but then he released a couple albums that just sounded horrible to me, especially production-wise, but he followed those up with his best album ever last Fall, and I'm as into Frank Black as I ever were (got into him thanks to Bowie, btw, in 1997)




"I speak what yah weak mind lacks" -Missy Elliott


Schenk
(grinning soul)
01/21/04 12:36 PM
Re: I Am Too Old For Retro new [re: EJSunday]  

In reply to:

... started to repeat his own recipes with little adjustments


But at the latest with Reality and the tour David has start to repeat himself. For me this tour is
Heathen part 2
minus Plati, the suits, (is the fan still there?)
plus some Reality tracks, the videowall and the belt.

But this is what David likes to do, most of the fans are happy, the tix sell, so "never change a sucessful tour"? Donīt get me wrong. These concerts are very entertaining and a lot of fun, but I think the time for a change has come.

Bowie said Visconti (and presumably this band) will be involved in the next project/album. For me this is more of a threat than someting to look forward to.



Dara
(acolyte)
01/21/04 01:28 PM
Re: You guys are so old! new [re: eraserhead]  

In reply to:

...is that Bowie, now an old man, is finding it hard to shock people these days. All the tricks have been played, there's nothing more he could do that would surprise us. He's run out of gas, so to speak. The last time he brought forward a new, "contrary" idea/album was in 1997 with Earthling. Now that is over, that was the last new idea, that was the last trick, the last contrary album. And yet some fans (this one for example) seem surprised by this, that Bowie has to retreat back to the mainstream. Did I get it right this time?


No. I don't think this latest Bowie direction is any more "final" than I thought his mid 90s direction was final. I remember at the time when I suggested that this was just Bowie's latest "phase" and I wouldn't be at all surprised to see him do an about face and go more mainstream in a few years, I couldn't find a single Bowie fan who agreed with me. Comments ranged from "He couldn't go mainstream any more, he doesn't know how" through "With all the money he made from Let's Dance/the Bowie bonds, he doesn't need to go mainstream any more" to "No, he'd never do that again. He hated the mid 80s and would never repeat that mistake" and "Naw, he's too old, he's just doing what he wants now and will never change that".

Those were all pretty compelling arguments at the time (way more compelling than your arguments in this thread as to why he's suddenly gone more mainstream in your view), and I was almost convinced. This time round, I'm even less convinced that this is "final Bowie". This is "now Bowie", and I'm experienced enough as a Bowie fan at this stage to not take for granted he'll be ploughing the same furrow five years from now. "Now Bowie" is thematically about getting older, mortality, spiritual confusion, reflecting on your life, and everything about "now Bowie" from the way he looks, the way he talks in interviews, the way he performs on stage, his setlists, his look and his vibe all support that. Of course you don't have to like that, but it is what it is. I keep coming back to what I said in my review of Hours at the time - middle aged angst just isn't sexy to the young and cool, so most will not be able to relate to the subject matter of Hours (and subsequently Heathen and Reality):

With the benefit of hindsight, it makes perfect sense that having resolutely refused to act his age at 50 (in the words of one Scottish TV interviewer - "Earthling, it's young people's music") and (despite what the revisionists would now have you believe) received considerable critical acclaim for Earthling at the time, Bowie would with typical perversity now put out an album that doesn't so much act his age as wallow in it.

Middle-aged angst has proven a problematic topic for most art, and particularly for rock. Teenage angst - now that's a different matter entirely. There's an endless market for teenage angst in rock, it seems, whether it's screamed a la Trent Reznor or moaned a la Morrissey. Even if the emotion is as vapidly superficial as most teenagers themselves and based on a total lack of experience (as in, I'm afraid of the big bad grown-up world, so I'll retreat to a "The world sucks, everyone sucks, existence sucks" state until I've had time to grow up), the fact is few things look cooler than a bunch of teenagers in the best physical shape they will ever be in wailing about how sad the world is. Like fawns, they are dumb, but they look so cute in their dumbness.

Middle-aged angst is about as uncool as it gets. There's nothing cool about a decaying human with only old age to look forward to whining about their lost youth. The menopause was never "in" and never will be. We look away from such things - middle aged people are supposed to "act their age" (whatever that means), shuffle off into old age without too many complaints, and then die with the minimum interference to the lives of the pretty young things wailing about what a horrible place the world is. We certainly don't want to read books about it (even books that deal with it as their central theme tend to be remembered for the scenery - Lolita for the pre-pubescent sex, Ulysses for the Dublin travel guide), watch blockbuster movies about it (coming soon to a theater near you - "Honey I'm Losing My Hair"), or buy albums about it (unless it's Dylan, and he's had health problems, God love him). And this is Bowie, people. He's expected to be cutting edge. He's supposed to go out, grab the hot new sound (Latin, right now. Hmm, good call, Dave) and fashion it in his own image, to the applause of his fans and the scorn of others.



Slan libh,

Dara

"What was the point of that In America movie? That only an inbred cretin would even think about going to live In America??" Fiona O'Kearney, 19/01/2004

Claude
(big brother)
01/21/04 03:45 PM
Re: Is Bowie defying expectations with A Reality Tour? new [re: eraserhead]  

"Reality Tour" is above all a perfect financial strategy.

___________________
Claude

Emil
(stardust savant)
01/21/04 03:54 PM
Re: Is Bowie defying expectations with A Reality Tour? new [re: Claude]  

You are probably right about that Claude... Bowie is into making money all the time nowadays. But do you think that means that his heart is not in this Reality tour?



pablopicasso
(wild eyed peoploid)
01/21/04 04:00 PM
Re: Is Bowie defying expectations with A Reality Tour? new [re: Emil]  

For god's sake, he's going out on a world tour, going to places he hasn't been in years.
Enjoy it and stop bloody moaning about it.

This post is not directed at any one individual, I just think whatever Bowie did, some would love some would hate, It's a world tour and the world wants to hear some hits, and so does the Bowie fan, and I think he has the mix quite well, ok he's yet to sing Too Dizzy live, but i live in hope.

She's so swishy in her satin and tat,
and her frock coat and bippety boppety hat

Edited by pablopicasso on 01/21/04 05:29 PM (server time).



Claude
(big brother)
01/21/04 04:19 PM
Re: Is Bowie defying expectations with A Reality Tour? new [re: Emil]  

Bowie is an "artist" but he's also a "manager". I think his perfect model is Andy Warhol.

___________________
Claude

Emil
(stardust savant)
01/21/04 05:19 PM
knock it off new [re: pablopicasso]  

I was not moaning. I was conducting a serious discussion about Bowie's attitude towards playing his music.

And Claude - I think you're right, just because he's making the right financial decisions doesn't mean he's in it with his heart... at least I hope so.



poorsoul
(acolyte)
01/22/04 00:18 AM
Miffled new [re: Si_rocks]  

Hmm, the only more obscure songs I really want to hear are...and Moknage Daydream.[/quote]

Very obscure, indeed.

Visitors From Alternate Universes Are People, Too

Emil
(stardust savant)
01/22/04 04:06 AM
Re: Is Bowie defying expectations with A Reality T new [re: pablopicasso]  

OK, I read your edit, Pablo... I shouldn't have taken it personally then.



EJSundayModerator
(acolyte)
01/22/04 05:41 AM
Two In One - But Still There Are Differences new [re: Schenk]  

In reply to:

For me this tour is
Heathen part 2


Agreed at first sight. The "Heathen" tour was a rather small event as apparently no-one was sure then if Bowie could attract large crowds on many occasions again. But largely due to a well received new album he could and so the tour was prolonged and put on a world wide scale with another new album whacked in. A little similar to the 70s when the "ZiggyStardust" tour turned into the "Aladdin Sane" tour after the release of that very album.

But still there have been profound changes.

Just a few days ago I watched that TV broadcast of the "Heathen" Berlin gig again. And compared to the

- two "Reality" German shows I saw

- the "Reality" cinema screening and its DVD release

- the "Reality" Berlin bootleg which is on constant reply

there is an overall difference in intensity between the two. īThe "Reality" shows are obviously much more planned and layed out in several aspects. The stage, the visuals, the range of songs and most strikingly Bowie's vocals. On the "Heathen" shows his singing was certainly great but his intonation and variation seemed very randomly. On the "Reality" shows he seems to constantly repeat certain patterns of intonations throughout the tour. Take his fantastic vocals on "Ziggy Stardust" on this tour. He made a few remarkable alterations to the original vocals which appear as spontaneous improvisation. But from all the bootlegs I have heard so far he keeps repeating these alterations on every show. Thus it appears to me that he has put a lot of thought into how to present his music. This was far less immanent on the "Heathen" shows. And this Ziggy thing is only one example.

In that aspect I would argue that the"Reality" tour is different from "Heathen". The success of the "Heathen" album and the mid-scale tour that followed were a surprise rather than the result of a masterplan. With "Reality" it is different: It's Bowie's proud stride back into the world wide limelight and he had big hopes that it would be beforehand. That's why he put far more intensity in planning any aspect of the shows than during the "Heathen" leg. And it shows. And works.

And I want to believe
In the madness that calls 'now'


Dara
(acolyte)
01/22/04 06:27 AM
Re: Is Bowie defying expectations with A Reality Tour? new [re: Emil]  

In reply to:

Bowie is into making money all the time nowadays


If that were true, then he'd have done Ziggy 2(002) with attendant massive stadium world tour, a certain cash cow if ever there were one. And he'd have tried to do Let's Dance Again by now too.

The way I see Bowie, while he's good at maximizing his income from his art, his art comes first, and is not compromised by commercial considerations. Once he's finished the artistic work, then he thinks about how best to sell it.

Slan libh,

Dara

"What was the point of that In America movie? That only an inbred cretin would even think about going to live In America??" Fiona O'Kearney, 19/01/2004

diamondogz74
(electric tomato)
01/22/04 08:01 AM
Re: Is Bowie defying expectations with A Reality Tour? new [re: Dara]  

Your words are perfect and a joy to read,Well done:-)

London Bye Ta-Ta...

poorsoul
(acolyte)
01/22/04 05:52 PM
Defy My Money new [re: Dara]  

In reply to:

The way I see Bowie, while he's good at maximising his income from his art, his art comes first, and is not compromised by commercial considerations.



So we'll just forget about Let's Dance, Tonight and Never Let Me Down, then?

Visitors From Alternate Universes Are People, Too

Dara
(acolyte)
01/23/04 07:17 AM
Re: Defy My Money new [re: poorsoul]  

In reply to:

So we'll just forget about Let's Dance, Tonight and Never Let Me Down, then?


Why?

Let's Dance = best album he could make at a point in his career and life (approaching mid life crisis) when his inspiration was at its lowest ebb. As Visconti said at the time, he was more interested in movies than music. The scale of its success took everyone, not least Bowie, by surprise.

Tonight = Rushed album virtually guaranteed to kill his global superstar status stone dead. Anyone who thinks Tonight was a calculated attempt to woo the mainstream more obviously doesn't remember much about the mainstream circa 1984. Had Bowie wanted to go on riding the Let's Dance bandwagon he would have
(a) used exactly the same personnel
(b) gone for exactly the same sound
(c) not filled it with Iggy songs

Never Let Me Down = Bowie finally starting to shake off the writer's block that had blighted his previous 7 years, albeit none too convincingly, and again making an album that had not the slightest hope of appeasing his Let's Dance audience, and even less hope of pleasing the few souls who thought Tonight was decent.

Slan libh,

Dara

"What was the point of that In America movie? That only an inbred cretin would even think about going to live In America??" Fiona O'Kearney, 19/01/2004

eraserhead
(stardust savant)
01/23/04 07:52 AM
Painting yourself into a corner new [re: Dara]  

In reply to:

Tonight = Rushed album virtually guaranteed to kill his global superstar status stone dead.


You always hear this, how Tonight was so rushed; it was such a fast process - he'd barely finished the Serious Moonlight world tour. I think he managed to take a few weeks off to go on holiday with Iggy and witness his wedding with Sushi (now ex wife). (Proably mispelled her name there; sorry Sushi/Suchi!) This holiday was also a writing session. Then back to the studio fast as hell, and then without further delay the album was out. Now, the question is: Why? Why was it rushed? Why so eager to put it out as soon as the gigantic, hugely successful Serious Moonlight world tour was over (and the last of the hugely successful LD singles had left the charts)? The impression one gets is that he wanted to cash in on his newly won success. LD had made him more money than he could have dreamed of. Why not enjoy that money and take some time off, like 5 years? Why not retire until he had something important to say again, like when he had another Low or Scary Monsters? Give me one good reason as to why we should regard Tonight as anything else but an attempt to cash in on his recently won popularity. And don't say: because it sucks, because it doesn't sound anything like LD, because then why was it rushed?? I don't think he wanted to make LD2, but I think he wanted to cash in on the LD success by making another album, not necessarily an album that sounded exactly like LD.

My personal opinion is that this album is an example of an album where money comes first, not art. Rather, it was compromised by artistic considerations ("Loving The Alien" + the LTA video). Once he had finished the commercial work, he thought about how to make it a little more artistic; how to hide the commercial ambitions. And so came the serious LTA lyrics and its artistic video.



"I speak what yah weak mind lacks" -Missy Elliott

Edited by eraserhead on 01/23/04 07:56 AM (server time).



Dara
(acolyte)
01/23/04 09:46 AM
Re: Painting yourself into a corner new [re: eraserhead]  

In reply to:

Give me one good reason as to why we should regard Tonight as anything else but an attempt to cash in on his recently won popularity.


At the time, the industry had already moved away from the "strike while the iron is hot" mentality of the 70s which saw successful artists release an album every year, sometimes two. If Bowie and his record company had wanted to maximise their return, they would have waited at least another year and maybe two before following up Let's Dance, and milked the album to death in the mean time.

Look at the other big albums round then. Madonna waited 2 years before following up Like A Virgin, then another 3 before following that up. Michael Jackson took five years to follow up Thriller. That was the way the industry liked it back then - at least 2 or 3 years between albums. So I don't buy the idea that Bowie made Tonight simply to cash in quickly. I think he made the album simply because he wanted to make an album. Big world tours often energise Bowie to release a new album shortly after, and this is probably what happened in this case. In retrospect, he'd probably have been wiser to wait a while, on artistic AND commercial grounds, but as always, Bowie did what he wanted to.

Slan libh,

Dara

"What was the point of that In America movie? That only an inbred cretin would even think about going to live In America??" Fiona O'Kearney, 19/01/2004

SoulLoveChild
(stardust savant)
01/23/04 07:48 PM
Re: Painting yourself into a corner new [re: eraserhead]  

In reply to:

Why not enjoy that money and take some time off, like 5 years?


My memory on this is a bit vague, but I recall the record contract he signed with EMI had a time limit for 5 years only or something. He'd signed so much money (for the time) with EMI that there was pressure to pump out another album quickly for contractual reasons. Because he hadn't written much material after such a big year, he included all the covers to get the album on the street to appease EMI.

Bowie in Australia February 2004
the wait is almost over

bowiefanpeter
(acolyte)
01/23/04 07:59 PM
Re: Painting yourself into a corner new [re: SoulLoveChild]  

Maybe Bowie wanted his EMI deal over a quickly as possible. NLMD, the last album on the EMI deal, was also not an 'labour of love"

Also remember that Bowie had no idea how to handle commercial fame of that level. The 83 tour probably did 2 or 3 times the attendance of what Bowie had expected.

BFP



dice
(every nation's refugee)
01/23/04 08:00 PM
Re: Painting yourself into a corner new [re: Dara]  

In reply to:

Had Bowie wanted to go on riding the Let's Dance bandwagon he would have...

(c) not filled it with Iggy songs


i dunno. i thought he did pretty well commercially with his previous iggy cover

show bush the door in 2004: please contribute to http://www.moveon.org
current approval rating: 51%

pablopicasso
(wild eyed peoploid)
01/23/04 08:48 PM
Re: Painting yourself into a corner new [re: bowiefanpeter]  

was n't TM1 the last?

She's so swishy in her satin and tat,
and her frock coat and bippety boppety hat.


bowiefanpeter
(acolyte)
01/23/04 09:04 PM
Re: Painting yourself into a corner new [re: pablopicasso]  

TM1 was on EMI. I thought he just did a 1 time deal on that album. I'm simply surprised EMI would release an album like that, which didn't even have DB's name on the cover.

Also, much has been written about TM being a 4-part enterprise with all TM members sharing in the cost and profit from their music.

BFP



NoControl
(kook)
01/26/04 04:29 AM
Re: Is Bowie defying expectations with A Reality Tour? new [re: eraserhead]  

I think Bowie's been defying expectations for decades, not only with the current A Reality tour but with each and every thing he does involving music - good or bad. IMO, the main reason for pulling out the "hits" again is to sell more tickets. This is extremely obvious and has thus worked very well compared to the Outside & Earthling tours which didn't sell shit. So, basically Bowie had to bring out the "hits" again in order to tour - more so in North America, or he'd be playing in small theaters/big clubs to crickets this time around, much like the last few outings on this side of the Atlantic. And he knows it.

Btw, I've noticed that some hard-core fans on this board have actually started making excuses for DB's mid-eighties commercial phase by saying in one way or another that he didn't sell out during this era and trying to convince others that he had to do what he did, when David Bowie himself has stated on numerous occasions what his intentions were during this period ($$$). I'd just like to say to those particular fans: Wake Up.

The A Reality tour is defying expectations simply because it's Bowie doing his thing. Whether it's confusing, surprising or shocking people with his setlists, image, stature, re-releases, etc. These are the components that makes up, sustains and propels his career.

So, your guess is as good as mine when it comes to predicting what his next album is going to sound like or what the next tour will bring in terms of what sized venues he'll be playing in, and what his stage costumes will bear, etc...

These are many of the reasons why I like his music so much. And thus he remains consistently effective...



...don't tell god your plans...

Dara
(acolyte)
01/27/04 06:29 AM
Re: Painting yourself into a corner new [re: bowiefanpeter]  

In reply to:

TM1 was on EMI. I thought he just did a 1 time deal on that album.


No, I think it was part of the original deal. As I understand it, the deal was for 5 albums in total. It is a little surprising EMI agreed to accept it as a bone fide "Bowie album" (they sent it out with a "File Under David Bowie" instruction to record stores), whereas Labyrinth soundtrack (which sold very poorly indeed) was not "counted" as a Bowie album.

Of course, by the time Tin Machine 2 rolled around, EMI had decided that maybe no Bowie album was better than a Tin Machine one, and they counted Labyrinth as a proper album, thereby releasing Bowie from his contract and relieving themselves of the need to release Tin Machine 2.

Slan libh,

Dara

"What was the point of that In America movie? That only an inbred cretin would even think about going to live In America??" Fiona O'Kearney, 19/01/2004

EJSundayModerator
(acolyte)
01/27/04 06:37 AM
Putting Out Fire With Gasoline new [re: Dara]  

In reply to:

(...) counted Labyrinth as a proper album thereby (...) relieving themselves of the need to release Tin Machine 2.


They must have been really desperate, those company guys.


And I want to believe
In the madness that calls 'now'


dice
(every nation's refugee)
01/27/04 07:31 PM
Re: Is Bowie defying expectations with A Reality Tour? new [re: NoControl]  

In reply to:

So, basically Bowie had to bring out the "hits" again in order to tour - more so in North America, or he'd be playing in small theaters/big clubs to crickets this time around, much like the last few outings on this side of the Atlantic


horseshit. he wouldn't sell as many tickets/play as many dates without the hits, but he'd never have a problem filling a small theatre in a major city

show bush the door in 2004: please contribute to http://www.moveon.org
current approval rating: 51%

globule2
(crash course raver)
01/28/04 01:21 AM
Re: Is Bowie defying expectations with A Reality T new [re: dice]  

Most north American tickets were sold before the tour started. People didn't know which songs he'd be playing.



NoControl
(kook)
01/28/04 01:23 AM
Re: Is Bowie defying expectations with A Reality T new [re: globule2]  

Not all of the tickets were sold before the tour started. Many of them were sold when the tour was already in progress...

...don't tell god your plans...

globule2
(crash course raver)
01/28/04 01:28 AM
Re: Is Bowie defying expectations with A Reality T new [re: NoControl]  

What's many? 5%?



NoControl
(kook)
01/28/04 01:46 AM
Re: Is Bowie defying expectations with A Reality T new [re: globule2]  

In most markets, 50-100%.

...don't tell god your plans...

Edited by NoControl on 01/28/04 01:50 AM (server time).



BillHague
(grinning soul)
01/28/04 02:27 AM
Re: Is Bowie defying expectations with A Reality T new [re: NoControl]  

The tour had already started before they were even put on sale here in New Zealand.



EJSundayModerator
(acolyte)
01/28/04 08:13 AM
More Statistics new [re: NoControl]  

In reply to:

In most markets, 50-100%.


Quite a range. Where are those figures from?

And I want to believe
In the madness that calls 'now'


globule2
(crash course raver)
01/28/04 09:44 AM
Re: More Statistics new [re: EJSunday]  

In reply to:

Where are those figures from?


His imagination. Although it's true that the larger venues in north America didn't sell out right away, I would not believe any figure larger than 10%. One can still get an idea by having a look at how many tickets are still available for Philly, Boston and Toronto.



EJSundayModerator
(acolyte)
01/28/04 11:19 AM
More Imaginary Statistics new [re: globule2]  

In reply to:

His imagination.


Ah, the usual source then.

And I want to believe
In the madness that calls 'now'


bowiefanpeter
(acolyte)
01/28/04 04:53 PM
Re: More Statistics new [re: globule2]  

The US ticket onsales occured in the final week of september. This was after the Rehearsal gig, after the Riverside gig and after a handful of TV gigs. Word was out that Bowie was dipping generously into back catalogue. Word was also out that he had done so on the 99 tour, 2000 dates, Tibet appearances, Heathen Appearances, Marathon shows etc. Also keep in mind that a week after the US onsales, the tour opened in europe, with full knowledge of songs spread around the net.

One specific example that needs looking at is Vancouver. The initial onsale was for the "theater/1/4" stage set-up. Then actual show occured almost in a full set-up. In the 3 months between that time the stage was bumped back 2-3 times. Documentation of this happening has appeared on this site.
I would safely say that attendance was DOUBLED from first months sales to showtime. That would be a 100% increase. Back in september or April I said the 4 Canadian dates would all do over 10K(Calgary 13K, Van 12K, Mon 11-12K, TO over 10K) and I was laughed at by some folks here.

You can tell that most were there to see the hits. You can judge this when by the reaction to the Reality material(noticable dips of interest in BC, strong reation in Seattle) That said, I was quite impressed by the reaction to the Heathen material and couple songs form the mid-90's.

The recent tour simply illustrates that strong attendance numbers will be drawn for Bowie's "proven" material. By proven I mean both songs that work well at all the NYC or europe shows. Some "hits" get tiresome and some newer stuff receives huge interest, and it changes from tour to tour. Large US audiences don't seem to enjoy being the full-on guinea pigs for Bowie's creative indulgences.

BFP

PS Bowie mainstream shows have a high "walk-up" number, so the shows in april should do decently come showtime.



jabow
(kook)
01/28/04 05:26 PM
Re: More Statistics new [re: bowiefanpeter]  

In reply to:

Some "hits" get tiresome


I am finding a lot his hits that he has been playing over last 3 years tiresome. It will be interesting to see what he will do on his next tour, will he keep playing the hits or go back to the kind of sets he did on the Outside, Earthling tours.

"You'll have to take me just the way that you find me."


globule2
(crash course raver)
01/28/04 06:49 PM
Re: More Statistics new [re: jabow]  

Some of us here are trying to guess what percentage of the total north American tickets were sold after the tour began in Copenhagen on October 7th. bfp says at least 50% in Vancouver; Nocontrol says 50-100% in most markets. My guess at to the upper upper limit was 10%. I won't argue Vancouver with you guys as you hopefully know better, but wasn't that the only case of the configuration changing after the original onsale? Some cities only got a theatre show, and these sold out right away, so the figure would be 0% for them. LA, Chicago and (ughh) Vegas got shows added after Oct. 7, so strictly speaking they would raise the %, but one could counterargue that if they had the show scheduled in an arena in the first place, there wouldn't have been that many tickets sold after Oct. 7.

I think that it will be very hard to get an accurate answer. Guessing ticket sales by having a look at ticket availability is tricky enough. One would have to have done this repeatedly, accurately, and for all venues to even pretend to be accurate, so let me be the first to admit that my number is just a gut feeling based on the few venues I bothered to occasionally check.

bfp points out that the Poughkeepsie and Riverside setlists could have spurred ticket sales among casual fans. Perhaps, but I'd define a casual fan as someone who doesn't look for setlists on the web. I certainly didn't notice any "I see that he's playing China Girl so I bought a ticket" posts here. Riverside wasn't shown in the US (except to a few BNetters in NYC), so that didn't get much exposure there. In both cases the shows focused largely on the new album, with only a few Sound & Vision "greatest hits" type songs (5 and 2, respectively, by my count).

I agree that Bowie plays Fame and China Girl to appease the casual fan and I agree that these songs get loud, if not the loudest, cheers, but I'm skeptical about word of the (ever-slightly-changing!) setlist having spurred such a large percentage of sales. To those of you arguing otherwise, I would ask: how, IYO, did the word get around mostly (internet, articles, TV, radio)? Please site some examples. I do grant that something like this did happen, but I don't agree on the extent. By many accounts Bowie doesn't get much airplay in most places these days, and apart from an odd article here and there, there hasn't been that much pre-show publicity, has there?

Some people even feared that some of the shows cancelled on account of his flu wouldn't be rescheduled (at least not in the same arena) on account of poor ticket sales!



NoControl
(kook)
01/28/04 08:27 PM
Re: More Ignorance new [re: bowiefanpeter]  

Idiots known as globule2 and EJ Sunday speak out of their asses, once again.

BFP you were and are right.

But what no one knew was the amount of hits he's be doing. I thought DB would be playing only a handful of them, like the past few years, but no, he's practically played all of them. When Blue Jean made it's appearance the other week for the first time since 1990, I knew any song from his back catalogue could be performed on this tour (and just might, as I wouldn't rule anything out from Never Let Me Down at this point). Not to mention the fact in the Fall, radio promoted the hell out of the fact that Bowie would be performing the hit's again...That'll sell ya an extra several thousand tickets...

Concert Bowl configurations were all pushed back to end stages in: Detroit (from 11-15k), Vancouver (from 7-13k), Calgary (from 8-14k), Toronto (from 9-14k) & Montreal (from 5-15k). Even in Chicago, since there were three shows at the Rosemont, that would be the equivalent of: from 4.4-13.2k. The figures (50-100%) aren't wrong as I can do the math. The next time you two (EJ & globule2) speak out of your asses, make sure you do it in style....

On this first North American leg, Bowie could've and should've done arena shows in Seattle, Denver & Chicago.

...don't tell god your plans...

globule2
(crash course raver)
01/28/04 10:51 PM
Re: More Ignorance new [re: NoControl]  



In reply to:

On this first North American leg, Bowie could've and should've done arena shows in Seattle, Denver & Chicago.


Why, then, did you predict that he would skip Denver and Seattle?

NoControl is once again lying, this time about the configurations being pushed back in Montreal and Toronto. I don't know about Detroit or Calgary, but I imagine we would have heard complaints as we did with Vancouver if that had been the case. Maybe all of that bluster is a result of Bowie selling about 50,000 tickets in Canada when he predicted less than 15,000 tickets would be available.

As far as radio ads go, I guess it depends on the market. In mine, I didn't hear or see any advertising after the onsale which suggested that the promoter was happy and confident about ticket sales.

I won't comment on his math ability as it speaks for itself.



NoControl
(kook)
01/29/04 04:35 AM
Re: Ignorance is a funny thing new [re: globule2]  

Why, then, did you predict that he would skip Denver and Seattle?

I'm not talking about that. What I'm talking about is in light of the current situation with ticket sales being so phenomenal because of Daivd playing practically all of his hits he should've...

NoControl is once again lying, this time about the configurations being pushed back in Montreal and Toronto.

I've never lied about anything, so you can go fuck yourself! And once again you don't know what you're talking about and I speak the truth. Montreal and Toronto had concert bowl configurations, originally. Now Toronto doesn't and last month Montreal didn't - the were and are pushed back to end stage configurations.

I don't know about Detroit or Calgary

They were pushed back to end stages. How do I know, you say? Well I've been checking ticketmaster.com and ticketmater.ca's seating charts frequently throughout the tour, that's how.

Maybe all of that bluster is a result of Bowie selling about 50,000 tickets in Canada when he predicted less than 15,000 tickets would be available.

I'm not talking about that. What I'm talking about is, is in light of the current situation with ticket sales being so phenomenal because of Daivd playing practically all of his hits that he should've in hindsight...

As far as radio ads go, I guess it depends on the market. In mine, I didn't hear or see any advertising after the onsale which suggested that the promoter was happy and confident about ticket sales.

Duh!

I won't comment on his math ability as it speaks for itself.

Thanks!

...don't tell god your plans...

th0mas
(acolyte)
01/29/04 08:02 AM
Re: More Statistics new [re: globule2]  

In reply to:

but I'd define a casual fan as someone who doesn't look for setlists on the web


yes, but i would not underestimate the "second hand" effect. the more people who are not really fans and just went there (like nogames girlfriend :-)) and leave the concert with a big smile the more people will get "infected". also people coming from the media business will be more interested if the target group gets larger so there will be more hype and promotion when the first concerts turned out to be amazing. i bet the Heathen tour last year had more effect on the concerts than any setlist could have had but i would not underestimate the effect of radiostations playing more bowie hits after having them in the current bowie set.
apart from this i guess the tour is also promotion for the BOB discs. and also vice-versa the tour is promoted by the BOB releases.

another thing: i have no ideas about any numbers but this time it did not seem as if people tried to sell tickets before the concert. perhaps last time i just went there earlier so i missed the re-sellers this time. but i had the feeling that it was much better sold than the heathen tour.
on the other hand there were still tickets left in online sale a few days before the concert. but that of course was just berlin which is much closer to copenhagen than north america.


"Have you tried... not being a mutant?"

Dara
(acolyte)
01/29/04 12:05 PM
Re: More Statistics new [re: th0mas]  

In reply to:

i bet the Heathen tour last year had more effect on the concerts than any setlist could have had


I agree with that. Bowie's been gradually moving away from the "no hits" thing ever since Outside (even the Outside tour included a few hits, and Earthling more so), really catching steam around Hours and Glastonbury, so really this tour is a continuation of that strategy rather than the abrupt volte face some seem to think.

There's no doubt that Bowie's stated "no hits" policy in the past cast a damper on ticket sales and appeal to the more general audience, but that's very much in the past. Even those who remember it will have been reassured, not by rehearsal setlists or setlists from other countries which as others have rightly said only we hardcores hear of, but by reports of concerts from the last few years and the PR Bowie quickly put out making it clear he'd be doing some hits and classics as well as new suff, dutifully passed on by local media.

Slan libh,

Dara

Living means accepting the loss of one joy after another Vladimir Nabokov

dice
(every nation's refugee)
01/29/04 01:53 PM
Re: More Statistics new [re: Dara]  

general response to recent posts:

it's silly to think that the unexpectedly strong attendance has much to do with setlists on the current tour (as opposed to his known general willingness to play the hits in recent years)

the hits will ALWAYS get the best crowd response, irrespective of artist or audience (unless a very small number are in attendance). most diehards will applaud the hits even if they're tired of them

i think the fact that this is his first "big event" solo headliner world tour since sound and vision might have a lot to do with it. more publicity, older fans who have maybe gone astray during the youth-oriented 90s are drawn back in for "one night only."

show bush the door in 2004: please contribute to http://www.moveon.org
current approval rating: 51%

christiancode
(mortal with potential)
01/29/04 08:22 PM
Re: Painting yourself into a corner new [re: Dara]  

very few people seem to know that tin machine ranges among the five best selling bowie albums, as stated by reeves gabrels in the mojo bowie special. so i reckon emi weren't that unhappy with bowie, but bowie unhappy with them as he had been with rca and would later be with bmg and virgin.



poorsoul
(acolyte)
01/29/04 11:42 PM
Re: Defy My Money new [re: Dara]  

In reply to:

Let's Dance = best album he could make at a point in his career and life (approaching midlife crisis) when his inspiration was at its lowest ebb.



When you consider Under Pressure and the soundtrack version of Cat People that had (if I recall correctly) been recorded the year before, it's clear how much better Let's Dance could've been. The same goes for Tonight and Never Let Me Down with tracks like When The Wind Blows, This Is Not America and Girls. I'd rather listen to the songs from Labyrinth than most of the other album tracks from that decade.

Visitors From Alternate Universes Are People, Too

poorsoul
(acolyte)
01/29/04 11:52 PM
More Money new [re: Dara]  

In reply to:

The scale of its success took everyone, not least Bowie, by surprise.



Just because he seemed to be surprised doesn't mean that he really war or that that wasn't his intention. Do you think he would've come out and told the world that he just wanted to be ultrapopular and make a load of money no matter how uninventive his music would become?

In reply to:

Anyone who thinks Tonight was a calculated attempt to woo the mainstream more obviously doesn't remember much about the mainstream circa 1984.



So what was Tina Turner doing on it?

Visitors From Alternate Universes Are People, Too

NoControl
(kook)
01/30/04 00:03 AM
Re: Painting yourself into a corner new [re: christiancode]  

Where, in mainland Europe? It certainly didn't sell shit in North America...

...don't tell god your plans...

EJSundayModerator
(acolyte)
01/30/04 06:22 AM
Set List Categories new [re: dice]  

Another general response:

To clear the view a little I have tried to split a current Bowie set list into categories: The Big Hits, the well known songs, the less known, and the new and "unpopular" songs.

I picked the long Dublin night as that's the one that's going to be relased and therefore defines the best current live set as the man sees it himself.

The songs are put into the categories following the assumed preferences and tastes of an assumed wide range Bowie crowd in contrast to an experts crowd we have here on TW. Some may argue on the categorization of individual songs as I in fact do myself but I hope you will agree in general..

Anyway, here are the 35 songs from Dublin:

Best Ofs:

1 Rebel Rebel
2 Fame
3 China Girl
4 Under Pressure
5 Life On Mars?
6 Ashes To Ashes
7 Changes
8 Heroes
9 Hang On To Yourself
10 Ziggy Stardust

Well known:

1 Be My Wife
2 The Man Who Sold The World
3 Hallo Spaceboy
4 Breaking Glass
5 Iím Afraid Of Americans
6 Five Years
7 All The Young Dudes


Less known:

1 Cactus
2 Sister Midnight
3 Afraid
4 Fantastic Voyage
5 Sunday
6 5:15 The Angels Have Gone
7 Loving The Alien
8 Heathen (The Rays)
9 Slip Away

New and "unpopular"
stuff:

1 New Killer Star
2 Reality
3 Days
4 The Loneliest Guy
5 Battle For Britain
6 Fall Dog Bombs The Moon
7 The Motel
8 Never Get Old
9 Bring me The Disco King

Adding them up the Best Ofs and the well known tracks are 18 in number, providing half of the show.

The other half is made of less known, brand new or "unpopular" stuff.

In my view this a pretty good balance for a show that is intended to please 10.000 people of a wide range of taste. Some may argue he is playing it safe by backing up the "risky" half with the "commercial" half, but I would argue that there is loads of people that enjoy much of both parts. Myself included.

"A Reality" is definitely not a Best Of tour as the figures clearly show. It may appear too balanced for those who are still stuck in the "Outside" phase of Bowie - but for those who are happy with many of Bowie's different eras the current tour is a very good deal.



And I want to believe
In the madness that calls 'now'


Dara
(acolyte)
01/30/04 06:52 AM
Hits schmits new [re: christiancode]  

In reply to:

very few people seem to know that tin machine ranges among the five best selling bowie albums, as stated by reeves gabrels in the mojo bowie special


Yeah, but apart from Reeves' statement (and Bowie's back when it suited him to portray Tin Machine as commercially successful), there's almost no evidence for this assertion. Certainly the charts and certifications don't support it.

In reply to:

so i reckon emi weren't that unhappy with bowie, but bowie unhappy with them as he had been with rca


Bowie's difficulties placing Tin Machine with a label are pretty well documented in the various bios. Fact is the album ended up coming out on London Records, which would be well down anyone's list.


And NoControl:

In reply to:

But what no one knew was the amount of hits he's be doing. I thought DB would be playing only a handful of them, like the past few years, but no, he's practically played all of them.


Hardly. Bowie's only had 13 US Top 40 hits. Anyone else putting together a Greatest Hits tour would probably play all thirteen, and fill the rest of the setlist with the best known of the rest. In actual fact, Bowie's only performed 6 of his 13 US Top 40 hits, and filled out the setlists with over 20 "non hits". And it's not even as if he plays all six every night.

In the UK, where he's had about 60 Top 40 hit singles, he's played an even smaller fraction of them, and still found room for lots of non-hits.

To show the tightrope he's on between the expectations of hardcore fans and those of everyone else, consider this quote from an Alameda Times Star review of the San Jose tour, entitled "Bowie stingy with his big hits":

Bowie was a bit stingy with the big hits and used much of his two-hour-plus show to delve into a number of rarities, covers and new songs.
That's his choice and he's certainly earned the right to play whatever he deems appropriate. But the result was an uneven performance that lacked in momentum and cohesiveness. There were some great moments, but the crowd had to fight through too much clutter to get to them.
In turn, the audience members reacted at times as if they were watching the spin cycle at the local Laundromat.


Slan libh,

Dara

Living means accepting the loss of one joy after another Vladimir Nabokov

bowiefanpeter
(acolyte)
01/30/04 09:06 PM
Re: More Statistics new [re: globule2]  

I can give you a list of reasons that non-net savvy fans know that Bowie was doing a fan freindly tour. These are all events from recent memory, or since most casual fans last saw Bowie live. US/Canada centric post, btw.

-Poughkepsie
-Riverside
-Europe opening
-CC heavily promoting the tour.
-recent tv appearances
-last 3 albums were "commercial"(ie: no NIN or d'nb postering)
-99 reissues
-30th reissues
-BOB cd
-BOB dvd
-Marathon tou
-Marathon tour book
-AREA2 tour setlists
-AREA2 reviews that were almost DB only write-ups
-New record label(db feeling optimistic)
-WTC appearance in oct 2001(america/heroes)
-cited as most influentiona musician in UK mag
-new baby
-Glasto press
-BBC release with 2000 show
-Roseland reviews
-print interview friendliness
-99 dates setlists
-Kit Kat Klub show in US radio '99
-Bermuda show on US radio ' 02
-Storytellers '99 show
-NetAid gig '99
-Bowie Bonds meaning Bowie was interesting in making money
-Dumping Reeves, along with any lasting association with TM
-Borneo Horns on heathen, like 83 tour. Mentioned in Heathen press release.
-Pete Townshend on Heathen

I would think that all fans attending a show would have seen, heard, or heard about a couple of the above mentions events. About 25-30% of these events I read about in newspapers like the Vancouver Province. Some of them should have been printed elsewhere in Canada and less so in the States.

BFP



NoControl
(kook)
01/30/04 09:28 PM
Re: Hits schmits new [re: Dara]  

Hardly. Bowie's only had 13 US Top 40 hits. Anyone else putting together a Greatest Hits tour would probably play all thirteen, and fill the rest of the setlist with the best known of the rest. In actual fact, Bowie's only performed 6 of his 13 US Top 40 hits, and filled out the setlists with over 20 "non hits". And it's not even as if he plays all six every night.

Wrong. Just because you don't have songs that don't make the top 40, it doesn't mean they're not hits. There are songs that are hits that don't even make the top 40. In the US, there's the Hot 100 chart on Billboard. And to make things even more confusing, it's the overall sales of a song, not necessarily the peak chart position that makes it a hit.

In the UK, where he's had about 60 Top 40 hit singles, he's played an even smaller fraction of them, and still found room for lots of non-hits.

We're only 1/3 of the way into the tour. You really don't think he'll add more songs to the set, especially since he's been recently doing Blue Jean? To me that says anything is possible. And of course he can't do all hits because there wouldn't be enough to fill up an entire show...in terms of setlists in North America that is...

The A Reality tour, truly is as several fans call it: the Sound & Vision 2 tour...

...don't tell god your plans...

NoControl
(kook)
01/30/04 09:41 PM
Re: More Statistics new [re: bowiefanpeter]  

Yeah but the public's memory's are fickle. Only die-hard fans would research things like setlists. Casual Bowie fans wouldn't ever do that. This is how they would get their info:

DJ: And that was Modern Love by David Bowie - he plays GM Place on January 24th. There's still good seats left. Get 'em while they're hot!

Casual Bowie fan (who probably only owns Best Of Bowie or Let's Dance): "Oh Bowie's playing here! Cool! And he's playing the hits! Right on, let's go and see him.

I mean why else do you think radio jumped on the tour after tickets had went on sale in late September and then all of a sudden in early November, CC started pushing back almost all of the concert bowl configurations in arenas right after radio had done their thing?

Btw, after the Vancouver show, I heard a few people talking about how disappointed they were that he didn't play Modern Love or Let's Dance at the show....

...don't tell god your plans...

bowiefanpeter
(acolyte)
01/30/04 09:43 PM
Re: Hits schmits new [re: Dara]  

Couple unrelated notes I wanna add.

When the rumoured dates surfaced back in september last year, Vancouver was in the concert Bowie and tickets for the 3 other dates had closed off balconies, but had full stage set-ups. I have attended shows with this set-up, so I do know that it is a practice that is put into use.

Western US dates, most around the LA area, have been added since the opening of the european tour. I'm sure this was due to positive response of ticket sales elsewhere.

The Seattle Bowie show was in a theater because the Gorge show in 2002 was just less than 30% capacity, even with a stacked festival lineup. Like Denver, the city's fandom needed a reminder of Bowie's full talents, and this was done by vastly underplaying the market. Bowie also played a small venue Seattle to encourage fans to flock to the Vancouver. The scheduled a perfect venue, with contrasting venues - one big and one small.

Though I will have a difficult time proving this, but the recnet Bowie tour had one advantage. NO COMPETITION. There is a dry spell in the concert scene over the winter and David's prescence satiated that thrist. The last big tour that hit cities in the US was Simon and Garfunkel back in october and November. And there's only a couple new exciting coming down the pike in upcoming months.

TM is top 5 selling Bowie albums. Maybe in the early 90's. NLMD was Bowie's 3rd best selling album in the late 80's so who can tell. I just wonder how Reeves would know. He's no longer involved in the Bowie camp and could only gauge by checks he receives in the mail. Remember that nobody knows Bowie's catalogue numbers, not even Dara!!! Bowie also put ous his catalogue once again in the past few years and the BOB cd/DVD package. I'm thinking a couple of his classic albums have added close to a million each. But that is only a guess.

BFP



poorsoul
(acolyte)
02/01/04 01:14 AM
Can't Hit This new [re: NoControl]  

In reply to:

There are songs that are hits that don't even make the top 40.



Not to mention the fact that a song can receive radio play and recognition without it being a hit.

I Forgot To Change It Before

Dara
(acolyte)
02/05/04 06:51 AM
Re: Hits schmits new [re: NoControl]  

In reply to:

Just because you don't have songs that don't make the top 40, it doesn't mean they're not hits.



Yeah, but if it does make the US top 40, then by any reasonable definition it's a hit. Fact is Bowie's played less than half his top 40 hits in the US on this tour. Given that he hasn't played Space Oddity, Young Americans, Golden Years, Sound And Vision, Fashion, Dancing In The Streets etc. etc., as well as a sizeable number of Classic Rock staples that never made the top 40 but kight qualify as hits under your looser definition, this makes your earlier statement:

"But what no one knew was the amount of hits he's be doing. I thought DB would be playing only a handful of them, like the past few years, but no, he's practically played all of them"

Wrong. He hasn't played "practically all of them".

Slan leat,

Dara

Living means accepting the loss of one joy after another Vladimir Nabokov

NoControl
(kook)
02/05/04 07:19 AM
Re: Hits schmits new [re: Dara]  

You're wrong. He has played practically all of his hits. And DB has played Sound & Vision, Space Oddity (snippet) & Fashion on this tour.

Songs / # times played since the beginning of the A Reality tour (as of February 3rd, 2004) :

NewKillerStar / 47 *
Cactus / 47
Hallo Spaceboy / 47 *
Under Pressure / 47 *
Ashes To Ashes / 47 *
I'm Afraid Of Americans / 47 *
Heroes / 47 *
Ziggy Stardust / 47 *
Sunday / 45
China Girl / 45 *
Fame / 44 *
Rebel Rebel / 40 *
Suffragette City / 39 *
Reality / 35
TMWSTW / 33
Changes / 30 *
Hang On To Yourself / 30
Afraid / 29
The Loneliest Guy / 29
Five Years / 29
The Motel / 27
Loving The Alien / 26 *
Never Get Old / 26
Life on Mars ? / 26 *
Heathen / 24
All the Young Dudes / 23 *
Fashion / 22 *
Bring Me The Disco King / 22
White Light, White Heat / 22
Let's Dance / 16 *
Fall Dog Bombs The Moon / 16
Slip Away / 15
Days / 15
Fantastic Voyage / 14
5:15 The Angels Have Gone / 13
Be My Wife / 13 *
She'll Drive The Big Car / 12
Battle For Britain / 11
Pablo Picasso / 10
Breaking Glass / 10
Panic in Detroit / 8
The Jean Genie / 7 *
Sound and Vision / 6 *
A New Career In A New Town / 6
I've Been Waiting For You / 6 *
Sister Midnight / 5
Blue Jean / 5 *
Starman / 3 *
Modern love / 2 *
Looking for Water / 2
Always Crashing In The Same Car / 2
Try Some Buy Some / 1

hit song = *

As you can see, half of the set every night contains Bowie's hits!

...don't tell god your plans...

dice
(every nation's refugee)
02/05/04 01:31 PM
Re: Hits schmits new [re: NoControl]  

basically all you did was label the songs he's released as singles as hits

in my mind, a "hit" should get some sort of radio play outside the promotional cycle of the single. many of the songs you call hits were quickly bounced from playlists

show bush the door in 2004: please contribute to http://www.moveon.org
current approval rating: 51%

zigbot
(electric tomato)
02/05/04 02:40 PM
Re: Hits schmits new [re: dice]  

I agree, dice. If "I've Been Waiting For You" was a "hit," I must have blinked and missed it.

As for defying expectations, Bowie blew me away. Although I've been a fan for many years, my first concert was the Vancouver show on 01/24. I then saw him in Seattle on 01/25, will see him tomorrow in Vegas, and recently purchased tickets to the Denver/Loveland show--even though I presently have work conflict on the day of the concert, and it is not yet certain that I can attend. Basically, I'm over the edge. So, clearly bowie has exceeded my expectations, even if he did not "defy" them.

zigbot

thekillingmoon
(grinning soul)
02/05/04 04:38 PM
Re: Is Bowie defying expectations with A Reality Tour? new [re: eraserhead]  

Well I would say Bowie defied my expectations with this tour, because previously I had only seen him on the Area 2 Tour in Detroit, which was a 15 song set now that I look back on it! Didn't seem like it at the time, probably because I was in such awe of seeing him live. Also at that time his voice wasn't in the greatest condition in my opinion, so I was pleasantly surprised to hear him sing so well. In reviews I had heard them talk about how his voice was in top form, but I didn't really believe it. But damn, Bowie sounded great. I guess I was a little shocked when I saw how simple the stage set was, simply because the way I had heard it described made it sound so elaborate. But in my opinion, I like the simple set better. It was just enough to make the stage interesting and unique, and it also meant that Bowie wouldn't be relying on a bunch of smoke and mirrors to put on a good show. It was just enough to be theatrical. And plus one of the catwalks ended directly in front of me, so Bowie was right in front of me during "Bring me the Disco King", which is my favorite Reality song.

But I can see why other people would be less impressed with the show, perhaps the only reason it "defied expectations" for me was because of the 31 song set, but maybe if I had seen one of the 25 song shows I would feel the same way and think it was just a Greatest Hits show. The way I see it though is that if this is going to be Bowie's last major tour as everyone on this board is predicting, then of course it's going to be mostly popular songs. But there were also quite a few songs for us hardcore Bowie fans on there too, because half of the time people around me were sitting because they didn't know the songs. I mean he has to include quite a few Reality and Heathen songs, so that takes up a lot of the set list. And I'm sure a lot of people who go to the concerts don't know those songs at all. If I could have my own private Bowie show (hehe..), then of course I would make the song list consist of songs like Sweet Thing/Candidate, Station to Station, Lady Stardust songs like that, but I know that's never going to happen.

Anyways, I was very satisfied with the Reality Tour, and all I can say is be patient and perhaps Bowie will dust off some of the hardcore fan favorites and do a tour just for us! It could happen..

When you've seen beyond yourself - then you may find, peace of mind, is waiting there - And the time will come when you see we're all one, and life flows on within you and without you.

NoControl
(kook)
02/05/04 06:40 PM
Re: Hits schmits new [re: zigbot]  

All the songs I listed with the asterick are hits. And I've Been Waiting For You for example, was a hit in our country of Canada a year or two ago.

...don't tell god your plans...

dice
(every nation's refugee)
02/05/04 08:13 PM
Re: Hits schmits new [re: NoControl]  

canada? why not include the odd bowie song that goes top 40 in sweden for fuck's sake. israel? cuba?

show bush the door in 2004: please contribute to http://www.moveon.org
current approval rating: 51%

CAwesome
(wild eyed peoploid)
02/05/04 08:40 PM
Re: Hits schmits new [re: NoControl]  

My local record store still has a copy of the single with the other Bowie records. The cover is a picture of David's nose, isn't it?

Oh yeah, and to be on topic, why SHOULDN'T he be playing hits?

Edited by CAwesome on 02/05/04 08:43 PM (server time).



poorsoul
(acolyte)
02/05/04 11:01 PM
Why? Why? new [re: CAwesome]  

Night after night after night? Because it's boring.

I Forgot To Change It Before

poorsoul
(acolyte)
02/06/04 00:02 AM
Bits Fits new [re: dice]  

In reply to:

In my mind, a "hit" should get some sort of radio play outside the promotional cycle of the single.



Here, I think, is the problem - how is the term "hit" being defined? I'm beginning to think that its use is rather misleading, as it's not getting the point across that there are very few surprise songs being played. Here's the way I'd break down the setlist:

From previous two albums (i.e. being used for promotional purposes, therefore to be excluded):
New Killer Star, Cactus, Sunday, Reality, Afraid, The Loneliest Guy, Never Get Old, Heathen (The Rays), Bring Me The Disco King, Fall Dog Bombs The Moon, Slip Away, Days, 5:15 The Angels Have Gone, She'll Drive The Big Car, Pablo Picasso, I've Been Waiting For You, Looking For Water, Try Some, Buy Some

Top Ten Singles:
Under Pressure, Ashes To Ashes, Ziggy Stardust (B side of The Jean Genie), China Girl, Fame, Rebel Rebel, Suffragette City (B side of Starman), Life On Mars?, Fashion, Let's Dance, Fantastic Voyage (B side of Boys Keep Swinging and Peace On Earth/Little Drummer Boy), The Jean Genie, Sound And Vision, A New Career In A New Town (B side of Sound And Vision), Blue Jean, Starman, Modern Love

Honourable Mentions: Hallo Spaceboy (number 12 on UK charts), I'm Afraid Of Americans (number 14 on Canadian charts, with mixed results elsewhere)

Other Singles:
"Heroes" (reached 24 and very well-known anyway), The Man Who Sold The Wolrd (Nirvana - arguably better known than the original), Changes (a true classic), Loving The Alien (reached 19), All The Young Dudes (Mott The Hoople), White Light/White Heat, Be My Wife, Breaking Glass, Panic In Detroit (B side of Rock 'n' Roll With Me)

Everything Else
Hang On To Yourself - live classic, from a classic album
Five Years - ditto
The Motel - a truly obscure song by any definition
Battle For Britain (The Letter) - ditto
Sister Midnight - in either form, definitely unusual
Always Crashing In The Same Car - a fan favourite, perhaps, but probably not well-known by the casual listener

So, the way I see it, there are really only four songs that wouldn't be widely-known amongst casual fans, which is what was being got at with the "hit" comment.

I Forgot To Change It Before

globule2
(crash course raver)
02/06/04 01:09 AM
Re: Bits Fits new [re: poorsoul]  

While you're at it, Hang On To Yourself was the "B" side to John, I'm Only Dancing, which went to #12 in the UK but wasn't even released in North America.
A valiant attempt to come up with a definition of "hit", poorsoul, but still problematic. If an "A"-side got hardly any airplay in some countries, counting the "B"-side as a "hit" is stretching it.



NoControl
(kook)
02/06/04 02:07 AM
Re: Is this a joke? new [re: poorsoul]  

A hit is obviously a song or an album that either sells and/or charts fairly well. Or at the very least, even a very well known song or album is considered a hit. Those are really the only definitions.

...don't tell god your plans...

Edited by NoControl on 02/06/04 02:11 AM (server time).



pablopicasso
(kook)
02/06/04 03:40 AM
Boring for who? new [re: poorsoul]  

In reply to:

Night after night after night? Because it's boring.



Most of the audience would only be seeing one show, a snapshot to remember for the rest of their lives.
Would you really deprive them hearing the odd hit because it's boring to the hardcore fan who would be going to multiple concerts. Up until the mid nineties Biwies' set list was pretty static, with just maybe the odd song being dropped or added , nothing like the set lists on this tour which are different in content and length depending on how he feels basically. I think he is trying to balance this tour so, the masses, the fans and himself get something out of it, maybe this is a first for him. As when he tries to please the masses both his fans and Bowie are not happy, when he tries to please his fans, the masses are not happy and when he tries to please himself, the majority of people are confused.


Put a Bullet in my brain and it makes all the papers


soho_beatnik
(electric tomato)
02/06/04 03:59 AM
Re: Is Bowie defying expectations with A Reality Tour? new [re: eraserhead]  

Bowie's mean. Real mean.

Because Life is a Distraction from Art

Dara
(acolyte)
02/06/04 06:24 AM
Re: Hits schmits new [re: NoControl]  

In reply to:

All the songs I listed with the asterick are hits. And I've Been Waiting For You for example, was a hit in our country of Canada a year or two ago.


Christ above, if you're counting a song as a hit just because it sold the hundred or so copies necessary to chart in Canada, then Bowie's had about 100 hits in total, worldwide. So your statement that he's played practically all his hits is still wrong. Just admit it and move on, or at least tell us you were exaggerating for dramatic effect, instead of trying to defend this utterly untenable statement.

Slan leat,

Dara

Living means accepting the loss of one joy after another Vladimir Nabokov

NoControl
(kook)
02/06/04 06:58 AM
Re: Hits schmits new [re: Dara]  

What are you talking about? It sold a lot more than that. And just because it takes a certain amount of copies to for a song/album to make it into the charts, doesn't mean it's not a hit. Your theory couldn't be more off.

One more time for the world:

The A Reality tour is a greatest hits tour (Sound & Vision: Part 2). And the only reason it isn't identical to the actual Sound & Vision tour in 1990 is that he has to play some new material in order to promote his newer records because he hasn't toured North America proper in 6 years and has had three studio albums since then. Bowie is performing the hits again for the money, period. He can't stand Blue Jean and several others songs from that era! But he's playing them. There is no other reason why. Why do you think ticket sales increased by 50-100% after most people found out that he was playing the hits again? Why do you think he continually reissues his albums every year and this year yet another set of reissues are planned for release in the Spring? Stop making excuses for DB when his intentions are obvious $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

Now as soon as you can admit you're wrong, that will be a good thing. Oh wait, I'll be dead by then....

...don't tell god your plans...

dice
(every nation's refugee)
02/06/04 01:45 PM
Re: Hits schmits new [re: NoControl]  

sure he's greedy, but this is by no stretch of the imagination a greatest hits tour

anyone wanna throw up a sound and vision setlist?



show bush the door in 2004: please contribute to http://www.moveon.org
current approval rating: 51%

jabow
(kook)
02/06/04 02:58 PM
Re: Hits schmits new [re: NoControl]  

i agree with NoControl this is a hits tour. If David were the musician/performer like he was on the 95 to 2002 tours he would not make any money off this new north America tour. Most of these small cities that he is playing in the people going will only want to hear hits from 70s and 80s. As David said many times before the only way to make money is give people what they want. People want hits so he gives it to them. I think its great that David is playing so many cites close to me, but i would be just as happy if he did one adventurous concert like back to back albums or all of low as an encore or something crazy like that, instead of a set filled with a lot of over played songs.

"You'll have to take me just the way that you find me."


White Prism
(electric tomato)
02/06/04 03:30 PM
Get real paid new [re: dice]  

Sound and Vision setlists.

Ideally, I would like to see as much variation as possible between shows, especially considering the similarities between some of the setlists which were performed in the same place on consecutive nights.

I just want to ask eraserhead his opinion of whether he considers Skull Ring or Reality to be the biggest sell-out. Being in the fortunate position of having heard neither, I couldn't possibly comment.

Fifteen jugglers, Fifteen jugglers
Five believers, Five believers
All dressed like men


Dara
(acolyte)
02/06/04 03:38 PM
Re: Hits schmits new [re: NoControl]  

In reply to:

And just because it takes a certain amount of copies to for a song/album to make it into the charts, doesn't mean it's not a hit. Your theory couldn't be more off.


What are you on about? Even if we accept your definition of a hit (made the charts anywhere in the world), then your original statement still isn't true. Bowie's had about 60 chart hits in the UK. Add in songs that never charted in the UK but charted elsewhere, some of which you are counting as hits (Waiting So Long, New Killer Star, Changes) to support your crazy theory that this is Sound And Vision 2, and Bowie's hit count gets up towards a hundred. Now as soon as you can post a list of the 100 "hits" Bowie has played on this tour, then and only then will you have proven your original statement that Bowie has played practically all his hits on this tour.

This isn't Sound And Vision 2. Yes, there are more hits than on, say, Outside or Earthling tours, and yes the North American setlists are a bit more hit heavy than the European setlists were. But that still doesn't make this Sound And Vision 2 where everything played was a hit and there was no new material. It's somewhere between the two extremes of "little or no hits" and "all hits".

Slan duit,

Dara

Living means accepting the loss of one joy after another Vladimir Nabokov

CAwesome
(wild eyed peoploid)
02/06/04 03:44 PM
Re: Why? Why? new [re: poorsoul]  

And I take it that it's not boring if he plays The Voyeur of Utter Destruction and Baby Universal while the people who paid to (gasp) have a good time sit on their hands?

Bowie is playing his hits because that's what people, believe it or not, want to hear. When they hear what they want to hear, they enjoy themselves. David Bowie is an entertainer, therefore that is his goal. Besides, what's gonna sound cooler:

ME: "I heard David Bowie play Joe The Lion!"
OTHER PERSON: "Uh?"

OR...

ME: "I heard David Bowie play Ziggy Stardust!"
OTHER PERSON: "HOLY FUCK!"



dice
(every nation's refugee)
02/06/04 07:03 PM
Re: Get real paid new [re: White Prism]  

typical reality setlist w/ legit hits indicated by ***:

NewKillerStar
Cactus
Hallo Spaceboy
Under Pressure***
Ashes To Ashes***
I'm Afraid Of Americans
Heroes***
Ziggy Stardust***
Sunday
China Girl***
Fame***
Rebel Rebel***
Suffragette City***
Reality
TMWSTW
Changes***
Hang On To Yourself
Afraid
The Loneliest Guy
Five Years
The Motel

9 hits, 12 non-hits

random sound and vision tour date:

Space Oddity***
Changes***
TVC 15
Rebel Rebel***
Ashes To Ashes***
Fashion***
Life On Mars***
Blue Jean***
Let's Dance***
Pretty Pink Rose
Stay
Sound And Vision***
Ziggy Stardust***
China Girl***
Station To Station
Young Americans***
Suffragette City***
Fame***
"Heroes"***
Panic In Detroit
The Jean Genie***

16 hits, 5 non-hits

random earthling setlist:

Always Crashing In The Same Car
The Supermen
Waiting For The Man
I Can't Read
I'm Afraid Of Americans
Look Back In Anger
Seven Years In Tibet
Panic In Detroit
Battle For Britain (The Letter)
The Man Who Sold The World
Looking For Satellites
The Hearts Filthy Lesson
Under Pressure***
Hallo Spaceboy
Scary Monsters
Little Wonder
Fame***
Stay
White Light White Heat
O Superman
All The Young Dudes***

3 hits, 18 non-hits

so the reality tour is somewhere inbetween sound and vision and the glory days of earthling

show bush the door in 2004: please contribute to http://www.moveon.org
current approval rating: 51%

NoControl
(kook)
02/06/04 08:08 PM
Re: Hits schmits new [re: jabow]  

I'm glad to see yourself and CAwesome understand.

...don't tell god your plans...

poorsoul
(acolyte)
02/06/04 11:44 PM
Gits new [re: globule2]  

In reply to:

A valiant attempt to come up with a definition of "hit", poorsoul, but still problematic. If an "A"-side got hardly any airplay in some countries, counting the "B"-side as a "hit" is stretching it.



How about if we just ignore the word "hit" and just concentrate on the fact that the majority of the songs being played are fairly high-profile and/or well-known in that they've either been released on highly successful singles or, even if they didn't chart particularly well, a lot of people would still recognise them.

I Forgot To Change It Before

poorsoul
(acolyte)
02/06/04 11:53 PM
Mediocrity For All new [re: pablopicasso]  

In reply to:

Would you really deprive them hearing the odd hit because it's boring to the hardcore fan who would be going to multiple concerts.



When those "odd hits" comprise more than half the setlist, then, yes. I'm not sure if I want to be more critical of the Phil Collins crowd who create the demand for Bowie playing the same old songs every single time ("wow, he's playing that China Girl song") like they haven't heard them hundreds of times before or the man himself for pandering to said shallow masses.

In reply to:

Up until the midnineties Bowies' set list was pretty static, with just maybe the odd song being dropped or added, nothing like the set lists on this tour which are different in content and length depending on how he feels basically.



Apart from factoring in the varying lengths, the setlists are still very much the same both within the tour and when compared with others. Just check out the link to the Sound And Vision Tour page and you'll see what I mean.

I Forgot To Change It Before

poorsoul
(acolyte)
02/06/04 11:57 PM
Re: Why? Why? new [re: CAwesome]  

In reply to:

And I take it that it's not boring if he plays The Voyeur of Utter Destruction and Baby Universal while the people who paid to (gasp) have a good time sit on their hands?



No, because at least then he'd be doing something different. I'm not saying he should play such songs for the entire set (though that would be quite a treat for the true fans) but there's really no reason why he can't expand his selection beyond what he's releases as singles or songs that get played all the time.

In reply to:

"I heard David Bowie play Joe The Lion!"



"I haven't heard of that song before, what's it like?"

In reply to:

"I heard David Bowie play Ziggy Stardust!"



"Again? Doesn't he always play that?"

I Forgot To Change It Before

poorsoul
(acolyte)
02/07/04 00:10 AM
In The Next World new [re: dice]  

In reply to:

Fashion
Life On Mars?
Blue Jean
Sound And Vision



How are these not hits? All were top ten singles.

I Forgot To Change It Before

EJSundayModerator
(acolyte)
02/07/04 06:39 AM
A Hit Is Not Simply A Song You Think Is One new [re: dice]  

I posted this a few miles above in this thread. I still don't get it why people would call it a greatest hits tour or even Sound & Vision 2. Here my statistics come again and I don't think there is much wrong with them.

To clear the view a little I have tried to split a current Bowie set list into categories: The Big Hits, the well known songs, the less known, and the new and "unpopular" songs.

I picked the long Dublin night as that's the one that's going to be relased and therefore defines the best current live set as the man sees it himself.

The songs are put into the categories following the assumed preferences and tastes of an assumed wide range Bowie crowd in contrast to an experts crowd we have here on TW. Some may argue on the categorization of individual songs as I in fact do myself but I hope you will agree in general..

Anyway, here are the 35 songs from Dublin:

Best Ofs:

1 Rebel Rebel
2 Fame
3 China Girl
4 Under Pressure
5 Life On Mars?
6 Ashes To Ashes
7 Changes
8 Heroes
9 Hang On To Yourself
10 Ziggy Stardust

Well known:

1 Be My Wife
2 The Man Who Sold The World
3 Hallo Spaceboy
4 Breaking Glass
5 Iím Afraid Of Americans
6 Five Years
7 All The Young Dudes


Less known:

1 Cactus
2 Sister Midnight
3 Afraid
4 Fantastic Voyage
5 Sunday
6 5:15 The Angels Have Gone
7 Loving The Alien
8 Heathen (The Rays)
9 Slip Away

New and "unpopular"
stuff:

1 New Killer Star
2 Reality
3 Days
4 The Loneliest Guy
5 Battle For Britain
6 Fall Dog Bombs The Moon
7 The Motel
8 Never Get Old
9 Bring me The Disco King

Adding them up the Best Ofs and the well known tracks are 18 in number, providing half of the show.

The other half is made of less known, brand new or "unpopular" stuff.

In my view this a pretty good balance for a show that is intended to please 10.000 people of a wide range of taste. Some may argue he is playing it safe by backing up the "risky" half with the "commercial" half, but I would argue that there is loads of people that enjoy much of both parts. Myself included.

"A Reality" is definitely not a Best Of tour as the figures clearly show. It may appear too balanced for those who are still stuck in the "Outside" phase of Bowie - but for those who are happy with many of Bowie's different eras the current tour is a very good deal.

And I want to believe
In the madness that calls 'now'


NoControl
(kook)
02/07/04 07:46 AM
Re: Oh Really? new [re: EJSunday]  

Below are many of the songs that have been performed on the A Reality *cough* Sound & Vision Part 2 *cough* tour (included are many of the single's highest chart positions):

White Light White Heat - #46 UK
Space Oddity - #15 US, #1 UK
Changes - #41 US
Starman - #65 US, #10 UK
The Jean Genie - # 71 US, #2 UK
Life Of Mars? - #3 UK
Rebel Rebel - #64 US, #5 UK
Fame - #1 US, #17 UK
Sound & Vision - #3 UK, #69 US
Heroes - #24 UK
Breaking Glass - #54 UK
Ashes To Ashes - #1 UK
Fashion - #70 US, #5 UK
Under Pressure - #29 US, #1 UK
Let's Dance - #1 US, #1 UK
China Girl - #10 US, #2 UK
Modern Love - #14 US, #2 UK
Blue Jean - #8 US, #8 UK
Loving The Alien - #19 UK
Hallo Spaceboy - #12 UK
I'm Afraid Of Americans - #66 US, #15 Canada

IMO, very well known songs:

Ziggy Stadust
New Killer Star
Suffragette City
Hang Onto Yourself
All The Young Dudes
Be My Wife
Panic In Detroit


Shit, that's a lot of hits David! And come to think of it, we're not even halfway through the tour yet! There's obviously more hits on the way...











...don't tell god your plans...

Edited by NoControl on 02/07/04 07:47 AM (server time).



dice
(every nation's refugee)
02/07/04 02:41 PM
Re: Oh Really? new [re: NoControl]  

white light white heat, changes, breaking glass: not even top 40 ANYWHERE! top 40 is loosest definition of "hit" i've ever heard. and honestly, are there really ever 40 hit songs out at the same time? c'mon. so those three get the boot out-of-hand. and canada doesn't count, so IAOA is out. i'd give 'loving the alien' the boot too. i would guess that one debuted at 19 on the career momentum of 'let's dance' and then fell off a cliff

we are left with 16 of what i would guess to be borderline and above worldwide hits. only 7 of these went top 40 in the US:

Space Oddity - #15 US, #1 UK
Starman - #65 US, #10 UK
The Jean Genie - # 71 US, #2 UK
Life Of Mars? - #3 UK
Rebel Rebel - #64 US, #5 UK
Fame - #1 US, #17 UK
Sound & Vision - #3 UK, #69 US
Heroes - #24 UK
Ashes To Ashes - #1 UK
Fashion - #70 US, #5 UK
Under Pressure - #29 US, #1 UK
Let's Dance - #1 US, #1 UK
China Girl - #10 US, #2 UK
Modern Love - #14 US, #2 UK
Blue Jean - #8 US, #8 UK
Loving The Alien - #19 UK
Hallo Spaceboy - #12 UK

you can add these in if you like:

Ziggy Stadust
Suffragette City
All The Young Dudes

19 hits have been played on this tour

16-9-3: ratio of hits per night for typical sound and vision, reality, and earthling (random date) tour dates. it's true that without material from heathen and reality that the remainder of the material could be considered close to a sound and vision era greatest hits setlist

76-60-19: percentages of hits played on typical sound and vision, reality, and earthling (random show) setlists when new material is REMOVED from the setlist

show bush the door in 2004: please contribute to http://www.moveon.org
current approval rating: 51%

pablopicasso
(kook)
02/07/04 02:52 PM
Hits Schmitz new [re: dice]  

Is anyone else thinking there is not going to be any conclusion to this thread?
I'm rapidly losing the will to live.


Put a Bullet in my brain and it makes all the papers


JonnyManic
(stardust savant)
02/07/04 06:09 PM
what *is* he? new [re: NoControl]  

In reply to:

A Reality *cough* Sound & Vision Part 2 *cough* tour


I hope you catch gonorrhea from a dog.

Silence Is The Voice Of Complicity

jabow
(kook)
02/07/04 11:00 PM
Re: what *is* he? new [re: JonnyManic]  

Buffalo NY is sold out. Anyone think they will add another show ?

"You'll have to take me just the way that you find me."


poorsoul
(acolyte)
02/07/04 11:22 PM
Lies, Damned Lies new [re: NoControl]  

In reply to:

Below are many of the songs that have been performed on the A Reality *cough* Sound & Vision Part 2 *cough* tour...



Because this argument was getting rather frustrating, I compiled the available setlists from the Sound + Vision Tour in order to compare them with the overview of the A Reality list and found that, of the 30 songs performed this year which had been written before 1990, 19 of those had been regularly performed in both tours. Considering the lengths of the shows, that's quite extraordinary.

I Forgot To Change It Before

NoControl
(kook)
02/08/04 08:03 PM
Re: To my best friend... new [re: JonnyManic]  

I love when people contribute meaningful dialogue to the topic at hand...

...don't tell god your plans...

NoControl
(kook)
02/08/04 08:12 PM
Re: Probably not, unless... new [re: jabow]  

No because there's really no room in the schedule for a second Buffalo show...unless it's added after the Holmdel, NJ & Wantagh, NY shows. I think you'll see when tickets go on sale for Indianapolis, Milwaukee, Pittsburgh, New Orleans & Miami, that these markets will have been also underbooked and really should've been booked into larger venues (amphitheaters and/or arenas).

...don't tell god your plans...

Edited by NoControl on 02/08/04 08:13 PM (server time).



CAwesome
(wild eyed peoploid)
02/08/04 08:18 PM
Re: To my best friend... new [re: NoControl]  

I second his statement. What are you complaining about? They may be hits, but they're awesome songs nonetheless.

So stop it, stupid.



NoControl
(kook)
02/08/04 08:22 PM
Re: Duh! new [re: CAwesome]  

I'm not complaining. If you could read properly, you'd see that. What I'm doing is telling people who think this isn't a greatest hits tour that they're wrong.

...don't tell god your plans...

EJSundayModerator
(acolyte)
02/09/04 03:47 AM
Look new [re: NoControl]  

So which of the 18 songs I listed as "less known or "new & unpopular" is a big hit then? New Killer Star? Ridiculous. Hardly any airplay here at all. No "Heathen" song apart from maybe "Everyone says ..." is a known Bowie song to anybody outside his fanbase.

And I want to believe
In the madness that calls 'now'


NoControl
(kook)
02/09/04 04:03 AM
Re: Zzzzzzzz.... new [re: EJSunday]  

What are you on about now? I've gone over everything in detail.

It's a greatest hits tour. Get over it already.

...don't tell god your plans...

EJSundayModerator
(acolyte)
02/09/04 04:13 AM
you simply never get it right new [re: NoControl]  

In reply to:

I've gone over everything in detail.


Yeah but as usual you got it wrong. So why don't you answer my previous post? Where are the big hits on Heathen and Reality? In which countries were these following songs hits? Especially outside the UK where most of the concerts take place?

1 Cactus
2 Sister Midnight
3 Afraid
4 Fantastic Voyage
5 Sunday
6 5:15 The Angels Have Gone
7 Loving The Alien
8 Heathen (The Rays)
9 Slip Away

Any basketball statictics at hand?

I might give you half a point for "Loving The Alien" if that helps.


And I want to believe
In the madness that calls 'now'


NoControl
(kook)
02/09/04 04:25 AM
Re: YOU simply never get it right new [re: EJSunday]  

Read my post on page 10....

...don't tell god your plans...

Edited by NoControl on 02/09/04 04:25 AM (server time).



EJSundayModerator
(acolyte)
02/09/04 06:52 AM
Why don't you answer my posts? new [re: NoControl]  

In reply to:

All the songs I listed with the asterick are hits.


This quote of yours from page 10 sums up your simple and annoying common approach: All your prove is your own definition. Ever heard of Groucho Marx?

Again, which of these songs that make half of the 2nd Dublin gig are a Great Hit and why?

Less known:

1 Cactus
2 Sister Midnight
3 Afraid
4 Fantastic Voyage
5 Sunday
6 5:15 The Angels Have Gone
7 Loving The Alien
8 Heathen (The Rays)
9 Slip Away

New and "unpopular"
stuff:

1 New Killer Star
2 Reality
3 Days
4 The Loneliest Guy
5 Battle For Britain
6 Fall Dog Bombs The Moon
7 The Motel
8 Never Get Old
9 Bring me The Disco King


And I want to believe
In the madness that calls 'now'


NoControl
(kook)
02/09/04 07:06 AM
Re: Why don't you answer my posts? new [re: EJSunday]  

Whoops, I meant my below page 11 quote:

The A Reality tour is a greatest hits tour (Sound & Vision: Part 2). And the only reason it isn't identical to the actual Sound & Vision tour in 1990 is that he has to play some new material in order to promote his newer records because he hasn't toured North America proper in 6 years and has had three studio albums since then. Bowie is performing the hits again for the money, period. He can't stand Blue Jean and several others songs from that era! But he's playing them.

...don't tell god your plans...

EJSundayModerator
(acolyte)
02/09/04 07:14 AM
Re: Why don't you answer my posts? new [re: NoControl]  

Why don't you just answer my post? Half of the show non-biggies is not a bd average in my book.

And apart from that the tour doesn't only come to the US.

And I want to believe
In the madness that calls 'now'


bowiefanpeter
(acolyte)
02/09/04 07:24 AM
Re: Why don't you answer my posts? new [re: EJSunday]  

How do you compare the 90 tour with the 2003 tour when some of the new shows are 1hr longer then the ones over a decade ago? It's the same amount of hits with some of Bowie's personal choices thrown into the mix.

Bowie has designed the show so people expected only hits can still go home happy.

BFP



diamondogz74
(crash course raver)
02/09/04 08:07 AM
Re: Hits Schmitz new [re: pablopicasso]  

I heard a rumour from ground control that hes seriously thinking of doing another "Serious Moonlight" tour.They are re-releasing the "Lets Dance" CD with a bonus disc to be titled"Lets Wince"

London Bye Ta-Ta...

EJSundayModerator
(acolyte)
02/09/04 08:49 AM
Are You Answering My Post? new [re: bowiefanpeter]  

In reply to:

How do you compare the 90 tour with the 2003 tour when some of the new shows are 1hr longer then the ones over a decade ago?


Where have I done that?

And I want to believe
In the madness that calls 'now'


NoControl
(kook)
02/09/04 09:37 AM
Re: Because I don't want to repeat myself new [re: EJSunday]  

OMG, you think I don't know that the tour isn't only visiting the US? He hasn't toured New Zealand, Australia, Hong Kong, Japan, Canada, etc., for a long time. And the majority of the shows are scheduled in North America. Why would he structure the setlist just around Europe when he always performs there? If the media didn't heavily promote that Modern Love, Let's Dance, China Girl, Fame & Blue Jean were going to be performed on this tour, attendance would be half the amount it is now or less (and those five tunes can sell several thousand more concert tickets believe me) - hence David wouldn't completely overhaul the setlist from nation to nation simply because hasn't toured in many countries in a very long time and the setlist would have to be geared more towards the tastes of the casual fan...obviously. For example: why do you think DB only performed to 12,000 people in Paris 2002, but yet on this tour he performed to nearly 31,000 people in Paris?

Sure he's going to throw in a handful of obscure tracks - he always has with each tour. But it's still a greatest hits tour...



...don't tell god your plans...

NoControl
(kook)
02/09/04 09:38 AM
Re: Why don't you answer my posts? new [re: bowiefanpeter]  

Good point, BFP.

...don't tell god your plans...

EJSundayModerator
(acolyte)
02/09/04 11:36 AM
Re: Why don't you answer my posts? new [re: NoControl]  

In reply to:

Good point, BFP.


Sure you got him right?

And why don't you answer my post?

And I want to believe
In the madness that calls 'now'


dice
(every nation's refugee)
02/09/04 02:10 PM
Re: Because I don't want to repeat myself new [re: NoControl]  

In reply to:

why do you think DB only performed to 12,000 people in Paris 2002, but yet on this tour he performed to nearly 31,000 people in Paris?


something tells me that he could have performed to more than 12,000 the last time around. am i right? the venue sold out, right?

dumbass

show bush the door in 2004: please contribute to http://www.moveon.org
current approval rating: 51%

Emil
(stardust savant)
02/10/04 04:06 AM
Re: Because I don't want to repeat myself new [re: NoControl]  

In reply to:

why do you think DB only performed to 12,000 people in Paris 2002, but yet on this tour he performed to nearly 31,000 people in Paris?


Are you suggesting that everybody heard word that Bowie was playing his greatest hits on this tour and therefore rushed out to buy tickets?

I don't think so.

If he had a bigger audience now, then it is much more a delayed effect of Bowie regaining cred because of Heathen.

Everybody... Of all the posts in this forum, this particular post will remain with me the longest.

NoControl
(kook)
02/10/04 06:07 AM
Re: Because I don't want to repeat myself new [re: Emil]  

Are you suggesting that everybody heard word that Bowie was playing his greatest hits on this tour and therefore rushed out to buy tickets?

No quite. I'm saying that most of DB's casual fans did, who haven't seem him live since his commercial peak 15-20 years ago.

I don't think so.

I do.

If he had a bigger audience now, then it is much more a delayed effect of Bowie regaining cred because of Heathen.

I disagree. Casual "Phil Collins" type fans are aplenty on this tour and they're buying up big time! The numbers show that.

...don't tell god your plans...

EJSundayModerator
(acolyte)
02/10/04 06:40 AM
More Lunacy From The TWer Without Any Clue new [re: NoControl]  

In reply to:

Casual "Phil Collins" type fans are aplenty on this tour and they're buying up big time! The numbers show that.


So where exactly is that information from and which numbers do prove that? Non of the figures in any of your posts has ever proven anything. How can somebody come up with so much rubbish within such a short time. You must be an alter ego. Or a true headcase.

And I want to believe
In the madness that calls 'now'


NoControl
(kook)
02/10/04 07:06 AM
Re: More Lunacy From The TWer Without Any Clue new [re: EJSunday]  

So where exactly is that information from and which numbers do prove that?

You obviously are out of your depth on this discussion.

I've researched many articles online and elsewhere for the info.

Here's a couple of comparable markets:

Detroit, MI:

Earthling tour: 6,000
A Reality tour: 12,000

Vancouver, BC:

Earthling tour: 4,500
A Reality tour: 12,500

Montreal, QC:

Earthling tour: 4,500
A Reality tour: 12,000


Non of the figures in any of your posts has ever proven anything.

Wrong. And a statement like that coming form someone who wouldn't know their ass from a hole in the way regarding many of the conversations we've had is very funny.

How can somebody come up with so much rubbish within such a short time.

The facts and the truth are rubbish? That explains your mind set.

You must be an alter ego. Or a true headcase.

Coming from an asshole who doesn't know what they're talking about, that's hilarious. Everytime I prove you wrong, you get pissed off. And guess what, that's not my problem. So go fuck yourself. I'm sick of your condescending ways. Grow up!

...don't tell god your plans...

EJSundayModerator
(acolyte)
02/10/04 07:20 AM
Re: More Lunacy From The TWer Without Any Clue new [re: NoControl]  

So how do your figures prove the Phil Collins claim? Have you been to a show on this tour? Have you seen the people that go to see him? How do you know what else they here besides Bowie? From the internet?

And when do you answer my question about the Greatest Hits on the Dublin show?

And I want to believe
In the madness that calls 'now'


NoControl
(kook)
02/10/04 07:46 AM
Re: Out of your depth, completely new [re: EJSunday]  

So how do your figures prove the Phil Collins claim?

Is that a joke? How many times do I have to go over this?

David Bowie is performing hits again. Hits he hasn't played in a long time, mostly since his commercial peak 15-20 years ago. Hs newer albums don't sell shit anymore. He hasn't had a gold studio album in the US since 1987! He hasn't had a multi-platinum album in the UK in ten years, etc. It doesn't take a genius to figure out that if he wasn't peforming the hits, he'd be performing to crickets, like he did in the majority of the 1990's. The numbers don't lie and they make this clear. The casual "Phil Collins" type fans make up the majority of the attendance for the A Reality tour for extremely obvious reasons. And if you can't see that, there's no way of showing you otherwise.

Have you been to a show on this tour?

Wtf? Of course I have. Isabelle "The Bunny" is my girlfriend. Ring any bells?

Have you seen the people that go to see him? How do you know what else they here besides Bowie? From the internet?

Wtf does that have to do with anything?


And when do you answer my question about the Greatest Hits on the Dublin show?

READ THE BOTTOM OF PAGE 11.

..and like BFP was saying, the Sound & Vision tour sets were shorter as opposed to this tour's. With your particular viewpiont, it's not a fair comparison. Apart from the obligatory new material he has to perform, take a look at the setlist after that and see for yourself how many hits per show there are...

...don't tell god your plans...

Edited by NoControl on 02/10/04 07:59 AM (server time).



EJSundayModerator
(acolyte)
02/10/04 08:24 AM
Too Narrow Minded new [re: NoControl]  

I'll try again: half of the Dublin show were songs that were less known or new. So how does that half of the show cater for big hits? I do not compare this simple statistic to any other tour and have not done so before.

If you had seen the S&V tour you would see the difference in attitude between then and now. Regardless of statistics as it is not just what you play but also how you do it. Same goes for the hits on the "Outside" tour, but in a positive light compared to S&V.

As I said before, it is certainly not an adventurous event as the Outside tour was - it is mainly a balanced programm between all Bowie has stood for in the past decades. Hits included.

You are right that there are certainly people returning to seeing him whom he had lost before. That doesn't necessarily mean they are idiots and Collins fans. I'd rather say that he got many of those folks back that were into him up til Scary Monsters and probably through to "Let's Dance". At least here in Germany. Those people are probably a bit older than you and were drawn into his stuff by his 70s albums. Not the worst of music. And far from Collins pop.

The Collins factor in his audience is not necessarily determined by the number of people turning out to see him. In the late 70s he easily sold out the Deutschlandhalle, which was the largest indoor venue in Berlin at the time. On the "Outside" tour that hall was only about half full. Following your theories all those who packed the place in the late 70s (and all those who failed to get tickets) must have been into something similar to Phil Collins. But I am sure they were far more into what certainly was one of Bowie's best and most adventurous phases and not into any assumed mainstream pop. And they did not like that much what he was doing in the 90s.

They didn't go with him in such vast amounts during the "Outside" phase which may disqualify them in your view but certainly doesn't necessarily lead to Collins fanship.

The one thing that put Bowie massively back into the focus of his older fans (and hopefully a few younger ones as well) was definitely "Heathen". It sold sold very well in Germany after it got very postive reviews and after Bowie promoted it with TV appearances and the short tour.

I don't have figures to prove it but what I experienced at the four different Heathen/Reality gigs I saw in Germany was that it was those he had lost during the later 80s and with the Outside endeavours who returned to current shows. You may not share those people's taste but you can hardly call them Collins fans. And to get some proof beyond numbers go and listen to the Berlin Reality boot. And then come back and tell me the folks only got off on China Girl.

And I want to believe
In the madness that calls 'now'


NoControl
(kook)
02/10/04 05:30 PM
Re: Only hearing what you want to hear.. new [re: EJSunday]  

I'll try again: half of the Dublin show were songs that were less known or new.

In this light, it's not a fair comparison to the Sound & Vision tour - as the sets were much shorter...

So how does that half of the show cater for big hits?
I do not compare this simple statistic to any other tour and have not done so before.


I've gone over this 18 million times! You should read what I'm saying.

If you had seen the S&V tour you would see the difference in attitude between then and now.

You can't be serious? Seeing people at a couple of German concerts as criteria for estimating how many people are into him now than before is the stupidest way of trying to figure out who's into his music at any given point in his career that I've ever heard.

Regardless of statistics as it is not just what you play but also how you do it.

You're bringing other factors into this which shouldn't be there and making things more confusing than they really are. I'm not talking about how the songs are performed, I'm talking about the hits that are played.

As I said before, it is certainly not an adventurous event as the Outside tour was - it is mainly a balanced programm between all Bowie has stood for in the past decades. Hits included.

I don't think so.

...That doesn't necessarily mean they are idiots and Collins fans.

I didn't say they were idiots. And I'm not saying that all of them are actual "Collins" fans because the phrase "Phil Collins" fans is a metaphor for commercially minded music consumers, obviously.

I'd rather say that he got many of those folks back that were into him up til Scary Monsters and probably through to "Let's Dance".

Well, the numbers show that much of the mid-eighties demographic is back.

At least here in Germany. Those people are probably a bit older than you and were drawn into his stuff by his 70s albums. Not the worst of music. And far from Collins pop.

That's debatable.


The Collins factor in his audience is not necessarily determined by the number of people turning out to see him.

Yes it is. The numbers don't lie.

In the late 70s he easily sold out the Deutschlandhalle, which was the largest indoor venue in Berlin at the time. On the "Outside" tour that hall was only about half full. Following your theories all those who packed the place in the late 70s (and all those who failed to get tickets) must have been into something similar to Phil Collins.

DB didn't have his "Phil Collins" audience until the eighties. On the Serious Moonlight tour DB sold out the Waldbuhne in Berlin to 22,500. The Deutschlandhalle holds around 10,000 and is much smaller - if there was that much more of a demand in '78, there would've been a second show.


But I am sure they were far more into what certainly was one of Bowie's best and most adventurous phases and not into any assumed mainstream pop. And they did not like that much what he was doing in the 90s.

Well, I'm sure that my socks were cleaned last night.

They didn't go with him in such vast amounts during the "Outside" phase which may disqualify them in your view but certainly doesn't necessarily lead to Collins fanship.

On the Outside tour, there were mostly to nearly all hard-core fans (excluding NIN's fan base).

The one thing that put Bowie massively back into the focus of his older fans (and hopefully a few younger ones as well) was definitely "Heathen". It sold sold very well in Germany after it got very postive reviews and after Bowie promoted it with TV appearances and the short tour.

So, all of his older fans got back into him on this tour because of one country's interest in a fairly new album???

I don't have figures to prove it but what I experienced at the four different Heathen/Reality gigs I saw in Germany was that it was those he had lost during the later 80s and with the Outside endeavours who returned to current shows. You may not share those people's taste but you can hardly call them Collins fans. And to get some proof beyond numbers go and listen to the Berlin Reality boot. And then come back and tell me the folks only got off on China Girl.

I didn't say they only got off on China Girl. And yeah, I know..those audience members were really shaking it to TMWSTW, The Lonliest Guy, Fantastic Voyage, Days, etc.! Give me a break!

...don't tell god your plans...

Edited by NoControl on 02/10/04 05:35 PM (server time).



EJSundayModerator
(acolyte)
02/10/04 05:43 PM
I Admit That I Wasted Time And Space Here new [re: NoControl]  

I give up. You just can't see beyond your own little world of numbers. Be happy there.

I hand this discussion back to those who have more to say on the matter of this thread.

And I want to believe
In the madness that calls 'now'


NoControl
(kook)
02/10/04 05:46 PM
Re: I Admit That I Wasted Time And Space Here new [re: EJSunday]  

Yeah, I know, facts and truth aren't that reliable, aren't they?

...don't tell god your plans...

pablopicasso
(kook)
02/10/04 06:04 PM
Re: I Admit That I Wasted Time And Space Here new [re: NoControl]  

GO TO YOUR ROOMS NOW!!!!!!!!!!!
I warned you both!


So long child, it's awful dark
I never felt the sun
I dread to think of when
When the wind blows




EJSundayModerator
(acolyte)
02/10/04 06:12 PM
Boys Keep Arguing new [re: pablopicasso]  

Hey, we already got our warning in that other thread. This is unfair. And don't touch my Teddy.

And I want to believe
In the madness that calls 'now'


dice
(every nation's refugee)
02/10/04 07:37 PM
Re: I Admit That I Wasted Time And Space Here new [re: NoControl]  

let's go with basic logic:

-playing more hits than he did in the '90s does not make it a greatest hits tour. only a few hits have been added to the repotoire from the '90s tours!

-less hits are being performed on this tour than on the sound and vision tour DESPITE longer setlists

-PRACTICALLY EVERY SINGLE HIT was played on the sound and vision tour ON A NIGHTLY BASIS! that is the very definition of a greatest hits tour. the reality tour, on the other hand, plays some hits a lot, some hits occasionally, and some hits not at all

-fans expecting a greatest hits show on the reality tour would be somewhat disappointed

-the songs performed on sound and vision that aren't technically hits were still amongst his most popular songs. several songs on reality tour are less well-known, such as 'the motel'

-everyone can agree that his pre-'90s work is the most popular. the S&V tour featured entirely pre-90s material

-a tour featuring a significant amount of new material is not a greatest hits tour!!!

IF "GREATEST HITS" WAS DEFINED BY YOU, NEARLY EVERY TOUR OUT THERE WOULD BE A GREATEST HITS TOUR

ask a handful of people at the show if they're there because it's a greatest hits show. they'd either say no or look at you funny (although in your case i'm not sure you'd know the difference between that and the way they normally look at you)

-you're is the same crazy bastard that said something like 20% of the reality crowds would be there exclusively to see macy gray at the shows that she opened. maybe that's why attendance has spiked!

-you're also the same crazy bastard that said attendance is sometimes increased in part because the price goes up. maybe that's why attendance has spiked!

"eh, i'm not terribly interested in seeing bowie anymore"
"but...but...he's playing modern love and blue jean sometimes. and you can pay more this time! and MACY GRAY is opening!!!
"holy shit! count me in!!!

In reply to:

facts and truth aren't that reliable


the problem is that you use facts for something entirely different from the truth



show bush the door in 2004: please contribute to http://www.moveon.org
current approval rating: 51%

BillHague
(grinning soul)
02/10/04 08:38 PM
Re: I Admit That I Wasted Time And Space Here new [re: dice]  

In reply to:

S&V tour featured entirely pre-90s material


ehrm, considering when the tour was, I would have thought that this was a given.



NoControl
(kook)
02/10/04 09:33 PM
Re: I Admit That I Wasted Time And Space Here new [re: BillHague]  

No shit eh?! ROTFLMFAO

...don't tell god your plans...

poorsoul
(acolyte)
02/10/04 11:53 PM
Bloated new [re: dice]  

In reply to:

The S&V tour featured entirely pre90s material.



Surely he could've at least thrown in The Motel on a few nights.

In reply to:

The Reality tour, on the other hand, plays some hits a lot, some hits occasionally and some hits not at all.



So let's call it a Hit and Miss Tour.

In reply to:

A tour featuring a significant amount of new material is not a greatest hits tour!



So you're saying Serious Moonlight and Glass Spider weren't greatest hits tours? Sound + Vision is a bit of an oddity, since it wasn't in support of an album, yet it still included the little new material that was available, such as Pretty Pink Rose. After all, what's the point of having a tour that doesn't promote one's latest releases?

In reply to:

IF "GREATEST HITS" WAS DEFINED BY YOU, NEARLY EVERY TOUR OUT THERE WOULD BE A GREATEST HITS TOUR.



In a sense, that is true. From the random tours that I've looked into during the course of this debate (from Glass Spider to 'Hours...' but excluding Earthling), once you take out the new material (i.e. from the previous two albums) there is a large proportion of "hits". However, the Outside tour did include quite a few songs, such as Andy Warhol, Teenage Wildlife and Scary Monsters (And Super Creeps) which aren't widely known and the likes of which haven't featured in other tours. Just looking at the Earthling tour now, it seems to have taken this one further, with even fewer hits played and more new material instead.

I Forgot To Change It Before

bowiefanpeter
(acolyte)
02/11/04 00:31 AM
Re: Bloated new [re: poorsoul]  

How come this tour is not being compared to the 83 tour. Easily a better comparison and more congruent argument.

I see this tour as "many of your favourite with no chance of getting YA or Space Oddity" All other periods of DB's career seem fair game.

The only reason Bowie did the 90 tour was that it was contractually linked to his $10M Ryko reissue deal. It's also the only tour he did that didn't support and new album(I'm overlooking the 3-4 2000 dates)

I would also like ot say that this tour features more "Hits/Best of/Favourites" than the 87 tour. Bowie's most commercially successful tour.

RE he's playing new stuff: Between the serious Moonlight heyday and the new heathen/reality material Bowie is only a playing a couple tracks in high setlist rotation. I can only recall IAOA and Hallo Spaceboy. Is this a good showing for 16 years worth of material?

While I'm in Rant mode, I'd like to bitch about lack of variation of US setlists. Not even order variation(opening song one night, encore number the next) I saw both Pacific Northwest dates and only got 2 new songs the second night(both added by bowie at whim) I definitely felt conned after reading the europe setlists. It's especially annoying since there would have been many Bowie fans "double dipping" that weekend. This had nothing to do with me being an obsessive follower. Of the shows I have witnessed, there was more variation on the AREA2 tour.

BFP



Dara
(acolyte)
02/11/04 04:41 AM
Semantics new [re: poorsoul]  

In reply to:

So you're saying Serious Moonlight and Glass Spider weren't greatest hits tours? Sound + Vision is a bit of an oddity, since it wasn't in support of an album,



Which is precisely why it was labelled "a Greatest Hits tour" - it's sole purpose was to promote the back catalog by playing the hits (and sell concert tickets at a time when Bowie's drawing appeal for newer material had slumped).

NoControl seems to be arguing that Reality is a Greatest Hits tour simply because Bowie is playing a number of his greatest hits on this tour. But by that definition, most major tours by major artists are Greatest Hits tours, so the term loses all distinguishing significance. Most major artists, young or old, play some, most or even all their big hits every time they tour a new album. These are normal tours, not "Greatest Hits" tours.

As I see it, there are essentially three types of tours:
- The Greatest Hits tour that nostalgia acts specialise in: little or no new material, most or all their biggest hits, no new studio album.
- The normal tour in support of a new album, like Reality, that mixes tracks from that and recent albums with older songs and hits
- The obscurities tour, where the emphasis is solely on new material and obscure old stuff.

I'd say the vast majority of tours from current artists fall into the "normal" category.

Of course, there are degrees, and sometimes you could argue that one "normal" tour is nearer to a Greatest Hits type tour while another is nearer to an obscurities tour. Using that yardstick, I'd consider just about every Bowie tour ever (not the Tin Machine tours though) as "normal" tours except for S+V. They were always in support of the current album, there were always some older hits and classics (even on the first solo tours after S+V for Outside and Earthling). However, there's no doubt that Serious Moonlight was nearer to the Greatest Hits end of the spectrum, and Outside towards the obscurities end, but for me, both fall within the "normal" range.

And I'd have Reality either bang in the centre or slightly to the obscurities side. He may have played lots of hits and classics, but I think he's also played more new and newish material, and obscurities, than most comparable artists do or would on a tour at this stage of the game.

Slan libh,

Dara

Living means accepting the loss of one joy after another Vladimir Nabokov

NoControl
(kook)
02/11/04 06:41 AM
Re: Semantics new [re: Dara]  

But by that definition, most major tours by major artists are Greatest Hits tours, so the term loses all distinguishing significance.

Most major artists, young or old, play some, most or even all their big hits every time they tour a new album. These are normal tours, not "Greatest Hits" tours.


Not at all. Why? Because most other artists don't tell their fans that they're not going to perform their hits anymore and then 13 years later play them again.

He may have played lots of hits and classics, but I think he's also played more new and newish material, and obscurities, than most comparable artists do or would on a tour at this stage of the game.

There's a difference between wanting to play newer material and having to play newer material. On this current tour, Bowie has to play newer material.

...don't tell god your plans...

globule2
(crash course raver)
02/11/04 09:30 AM
Re: Semantics new [re: Dara]  

If, by your own definition, the Outside tour falls into the "normal" range, I'd be curious to see an example of an "obscurities" tour by a major act. Bowie was still keeping his word then and not playing any of the "retired" songs from 1990, so I'd have to categorize Outside as "obscurities".



Dara
(acolyte)
02/11/04 02:04 PM
Re: Semantics new [re: globule2]  

In reply to:

If, by your own definition, the Outside tour falls into the "normal" range, I'd be curious to see an example of an "obscurities" tour by a major act.


I think they're rare almost to the point of not existing, but the best example I can think of is Springsteen's Tom Joad tour.


In reply to:

Bowie was still keeping his word then and not playing any of the "retired" songs from 1990, so I'd have to categorize Outside as "obscurities".


Bowie stuck to his word in so far as he didn't include hits he'd played on the Sound And Vision tour, but he did include hits, some of them much bigger hits than some of the songs he did on Sound And Vision.

On the Outside tour, as well as playing the three UK Top 40 hit singles Outside spawned, he played:
- Under Pressure (a UK number one)
- Scary Monsters (UK #20)
- Jump They Say (UK #9)
- Boys Keep Swinging (UK #7)
- DJ (UK #29)
- Diamond Dogs (UK #21).

In fact, of the 31 songs that Pegg lists as regulars on that tour, 9 were UK top 40 hits, a further 6 could be classified as classic oldies or well known songs (Look Back In Anger, Breaking Glass, Andy Warhol, The Man Who Sold The World, My Death, Moonage Daydream), a further 8 were from the current album, two were the NIN songs he did with them, leaving only 6 genuine "obscure Bowie oldies". Not really all that different, percentagewise, from Reality.

Slan leat,

Dara


Living means accepting the loss of one joy after another Vladimir Nabokov

NoControl
(kook)
02/11/04 06:37 PM
Re: Completely wrong new [re: Dara]  

Bowie stuck to his word in so far as he didn't include hits he'd played on the Sound And Vision tour, but he did include hits, some of them much bigger hits than some of the songs he did on Sound And Vision.

Dead wrong. That's the funniest thing I've heard all day! Thanks for that!

On the Outside tour, as well as playing the three UK Top 40 hit singles Outside spawned...

The songs performed from Outside were obligatory and had to be played. And that includes Jump (They Say) - since there was no tour for Black Tie, White Noise.

... a further 6 could be classified as classic oldies or well known songs (Look Back In Anger, Breaking Glass, Andy Warhol, The Man Who Sold The World, My Death, Moonage Daydream)...

None of those songs are well known songs apart from Breaking Glass (and maybe even Moonage Daydream) and most likely wouldn't be recognized at all beyond his hard-core fan base.

Not really all that different, percentagewise, from Reality.

That's the second funniest thing I've heard all day! Thanks for that!



...don't tell god your plans...

Edited by NoControl on 02/11/04 06:39 PM (server time).



pablopicasso
(kook)
02/11/04 06:45 PM
Re: Semantics new [re: NoControl]  

In reply to:

Not at all. Why? Because most other artists don't tell their fans that they're not going to perform their hits anymore and then 13 years later play them again.



Since when did we believe that statement?


So long child, it's awful dark
I never felt the sun
I dread to think of when
When the wind blows




NoControl
(kook)
02/11/04 06:51 PM
Re: Semantics new [re: pablopicasso]  

We, as in?

...don't tell god your plans...

pablopicasso
(kook)
02/11/04 07:06 PM
Re: Semantics new [re: NoControl]  

I mean, I for one never believed he'd never perform those songs again, never is a long time.
I do However think he has the mix of old and new is near enough right. I think he is playing enough MAJOR hits, plus a lot of MINOR hits. And is also catering for the hardcore by performing some obscure stuff. And tracks like starman can be considered obscure as he has never overplayed it even though it was a big hit, from the early 70's until the sound and vision toure it was hardly performed. So just cos something is a hit doesnt mean it is not obscure. And if this was a greatest hits tour he should be playing Space Oddity, Young Americans, and Fashion plus let's dance should be played every night.


So long child, it's awful dark
I never felt the sun
I dread to think of when
When the wind blows




NoControl
(kook)
02/11/04 07:24 PM
Re: Semantics new [re: pablopicasso]  

So just cos something is a hit doesnt mean it is not obscure

Huh?

. And if this was a greatest hits tour he should be playing Space Oddity, Young Americans, and Fashion plus let's dance should be played every night.

Bowie has played Space Oddity & Fashion on this tour. Plus we're not even halfway through the tour, I'm sure there's more hits to come...


...don't tell god your plans...

pablopicasso
(kook)
02/11/04 07:54 PM
Defining obscure hits and greatest hits tours new [re: NoControl]  


Ok Here goes;

In reply to:


Let's Dance / 16
Fashion / 22
The Jean Genie / 7 *
Sound and Vision / 6 *
Jean / 5 *
Starman / 3 *
Life on Mars ? / 26
Modern love / 2


These are some of Bowie's biggest worldwide hits and he has only played fashion at 22/47 of the shows you quoted. His Biggest global hit has only been played a measly 16 times, approx a third of the shows, from his 70's heyday Jean Genie SEVEN times, his breakthrough hit (with the exception of space oddity) TWICE!!! His most well known song (the offormentioned Space Oddity) mmmmm missing from your list entirely! (I concede he played a snippet of it at a show)
Now if I was going to a David Bowie GREATEST HITS concert, I would come away pretty short changed by the above (your) statistics.

next point obscure hits.
John I'm only Dancing, Drive in saturday, Up the hill backwards, Diamond dogs, When the wind blows, Underground, cat people, were all big hits, notably absent from many a tour, if he was to play any of these it would get a shock reaction from fans. Drive in saturday was a top 5 hit in the uk but i bet most people wouldn't recognise it.

By the way, just where was Be my wife a Hit??? it didn't even get top 75 in the uk and I doubt it bothered the american or canadian charts either?




So long child, it's awful dark
I never felt the sun
I dread to think of when
When the wind blows




NoControl
(kook)
02/11/04 08:17 PM
Re: Defining obscure hits and greatest hits tours new [re: pablopicasso]  

These are some of Bowie's biggest worldwide hits and he has only played fashion at 22/47 of the shows you quoted. His Biggest global hit has only been played a measly 16 times, approx a third of the shows, from his 70's heyday Jean Genie SEVEN times, his breakthrough hit (with the exception of space oddity) TWICE!!! His most well known song (the offormentioned Space Oddity) mmmmm missing from your list entirely! (I concede he played a snippet of it at a show)
Now if I was going to a David Bowie GREATEST HITS concert, I would come away pretty short changed by the above (your) statistics.


We're only less than halfway through the tour - there's more hits to be perfomed, I'm sure. Many people came home short changed and were complaining after the show that they didn't hear some of the hits on that particular night. He can't play all the hits - within the time frame of a concert there's not enough time to.

By the way, just where was Be my wife a Hit??? it didn't even get top 75 in the uk and I doubt it bothered the american or canadian charts either?

It wasn't chartwise but it's still a well known song IMO.

Oh btw, That's not my list you quoted - as I would've listed Let's Dance as a hit with an asterick * because it was one, for example.

...don't tell god your plans...

Edited by NoControl on 02/11/04 08:30 PM (server time).



CAwesome
(wild eyed peoploid)
02/11/04 08:31 PM
Re: Semantics new [re: NoControl]  

He played Space Oddity for a whole nine seconds.

Now stop talking. I know karate.



dice
(every nation's refugee)
02/11/04 08:33 PM
Re: Defining obscure hits and greatest hits tours new [re: NoControl]  

In reply to:

On this current tour, Bowie has to play newer material


he HAS TO play 8 new songs a night? AND additional 90s material? you could say that he's obligated to play the singles in order to maximize demand, but not 8 fucking new songs a night!

you keep digging yourself a bigger hole

In reply to:

ROTFLMFAO


and i thought we've been over how moronic this is

show bush the door in 2004: please contribute to http://www.moveon.org
current approval rating: 51%

dice
(every nation's refugee)
02/11/04 08:36 PM
Re: I Admit That I Wasted Time And Space Here new [re: BillHague]  

In reply to:

ehrm, considering when the tour was, I would have thought that this was a given


you're a dumbass too. that obvious statement of mine was necessary for the purpose of comparison. CONTEXT!

show bush the door in 2004: please contribute to http://www.moveon.org
current approval rating: 51%

pablopicasso
(kook)
02/12/04 02:45 AM
Re: Defining obscure hits and greatest hits tours new [re: NoControl]  

In reply to:


By the way, just where was Be my wife a Hit??? it didn't even get top 75 in the uk and I doubt it bothered the american or canadian charts either?

It wasn't chartwise but it's still a well known song IMO.

Oh btw, That's not my list you quoted - as I would've listed Let's Dance as a hit with an asterick * because it was one, for example.


t was your list actually, i just didn't include all the asterick (sic) as I assumed everyone would know that was a hit.
Oh and you put an asterisk by Be my wife to signify hit and I wouldn't even class be my wife as a well known song to the masses, ask Phil Collins if he knows it?
Most mortals would not be going to every show, and if they were going to ONE BOWIE GREATEST HIT CONCERT they would expect his biggedt worldwide hits, LD,SO,F,YA, etc.

In reply to:


We're only less than halfway through the tour - there's more hits to be perfomed, I'm sure. Many people came home short changed and were complaining after the show that they didn't hear some of the hits on that particular night. He can't play all the hits - within the time frame of a concert there's not enough time to.


Not much of a Greatest hits tour then is it, if MANY people came home short changed?

Can we just let this thread sink now?


So long child, it's awful dark
I never felt the sun
I dread to think of when
When the wind blows




NoControl
(kook)
02/12/04 03:53 AM
Re: Defining obscure hits and greatest hits tours new [re: pablopicasso]  

it was your list actually, i just didn't include all the asterick (sic) as I assumed everyone would know that was a hit.
Oh and you put an asterisk by Be my wife to signify hit and I wouldn't even class be my wife as a well known song to the masses, ask Phil Collins if he knows it?


Well, I don't agree.


Most mortals would not be going to every show, and if they were going to ONE BOWIE GREATEST HIT CONCERT they would expect his biggedt worldwide hits, LD,SO,F,YA, etc.

Not much of a Greatest hits tour then is it, if MANY people came home short changed?

2/3-3/4 of every show has featured a hit song in the setlist. The latter made up the obligatory new material and a few obscure tracks that Bowie always does with each tour or sometimes even more (i.e. the Outside & Earthling tours). And like I said before, many fans went home disappointed because of the fact that in North America the A Reality tour was promoted in a way that made it clear that Bowie was performing hits again that he hadn't done in a long time. But the thing was, this type of promotion started in early November, well after tickets originally went on sale in late September - obviously due to the fact that originally tix were not selling well. When this type of promotion picked up, concert bowl configurations were pushed back to 180 & 270 degree end stage configurations.

As for Europe, he always plays there and the fans already were aware that he had been performing some of his hits again for the past couple of years and hence ticket sales were healthier at the get go compared to North America.

Can we just let this thread sink now?

I'd like to too.



...don't tell god your plans...

Dara
(acolyte)
02/12/04 04:46 AM
Uair eile leis an ri amadan new [re: NoControl]  

In reply to:

Bowie stuck to his word in so far as he didn't include hits he'd played on the Sound And Vision tour, but he did include hits, some of them much bigger hits than some of the songs he did on Sound And Vision.

Dead wrong. That's the funniest thing I've heard all day!


OK, so turn off the laughing gas for a minute and rather than just saying the statement is funny and wrong, explain to me how it is wrong.

In particular, how is Under Pressure (UK #1, US #29) not a bigger hit than some of the songs he did on S+V? Say, for example, TVC 15 (US #64, UK #33) or Be My Wife (missed the charts completely in both the UK and the US). In fact, I could go on and on with this list, but it's shorter to say that of the 32 songs Pegg lists as Sound & Vision regulars, only Space Oddity and Let's Dance did as well or better than UP in both the US and the UK, and only five others did better in the US than Under Pressure. So the other 25 songs on S+V did worse in both the US and the UK than Under Pressure did.

Furthermore, in addition to Be My Wife which never charted in either the US or the UK, a further eleven of the Sound And Vision regulars Pegg lists never charted in either the US or the UK, so by your own definition of hit, they were smaller hits than any of the songs he played on Outside that did, including the likes of Diamond Dogs, DJ, Boys Keep Swinging.

Slan leat,

Dara

Living means accepting the loss of one joy after another Vladimir Nabokov

NoControl
(kook)
02/12/04 05:05 AM
Re: Uair eile leis an ri amadan new [re: Dara]  

OK, so turn off the laughing gas for a minute and rather than just saying the statement is funny and wrong, explain to me how it is wrong.

With statements like that, the laughing gas has been in circulation for a very long time.

In particular, how is Under Pressure (UK #1, US #29) not a bigger hit than some of the songs he did on S+V? Say, for example, TVC 15 (US #64, UK #33) or Be My Wife (missed the charts completely in both the UK and the US). In fact, I could go on and on with this list, but it's shorter to say that of the 32 songs Pegg lists as Sound & Vision regulars, only Space Oddity and Let's Dance did as well or better than UP in both the US and the UK, and only five others did better in the US than Under Pressure. So the other 25 songs on S+V did worse in both the US and the UK than Under Pressure did.

Furthermore, in addition to Be My Wife which never charted in either the US or the UK, a further eleven of the Sound And Vision regulars Pegg lists never charted in either the US or the UK, so by your own definition of hit, they were smaller hits than any of the songs he played on Outside that did, including the likes of Diamond Dogs, DJ, Boys Keep Swinging.


We've gone over this many times. Just because a song's chart peak is higher than another song's chart peak, doesn't mean it's sold more copies. In order to figure that out, it would be next to impossible. Oh and btw, I'd like to see the list of the "eleven songs" from the Sound & Vision tour setlist that weren't hits.


...don't tell god your plans...

Dara
(acolyte)
02/12/04 07:46 AM
Re: Uair eile leis an ri amadan new [re: NoControl]  

In reply to:

We've gone over this many times. Just because a song's chart peak is higher than another song's chart peak, doesn't mean it's sold more copies. In order to figure that out, it would be next to impossible.


Are you saying that there is even the slightest chance that Under Pressure, which went to number one in the UK and top 30 in the US, sold less copies than a song that didn't make either chart, for even one week?

In reply to:

Oh and btw, I'd like to see the list of the "eleven songs" from the Sound & Vision tour setlist that weren't hits.


Well then, here's what you do. Look up the songs listed in Pegg's book, and compare them with the chart hits listed in Buckley's (or at Bassman's site). I'd have thought you could have figured that one out for yourself, but perhaps not.

Slan leat,

Dara


Living means accepting the loss of one joy after another Vladimir Nabokov

NoControl
(kook)
02/12/04 08:18 AM
Re: Uair eile leis an ri amadan new [re: Dara]  

Are you saying that there is even the slightest chance that Under Pressure, which went to number one in the UK and top 30 in the US, sold less copies than a song that didn't make either chart, for even one week?

Not exactly. I'm saying that it's very possible that song x by an artist can outsell song y, even if it doesn't chart higher than the song y. For example: take a look at The Dark Side Of The Moon - it was #1 for only 1 week in the US. But The Wall was #1 in the US for 15 weeks. The Dark Side Of The Moon sold more copies.

Bottom Line: it's possible and it has happened.

Well then, here's what you do. Look up the songs listed in Pegg's book, and compare them with the chart hits listed in Buckley's (or at Bassman's site). I'd have thought you could have figured that one out for yourself, but perhaps not

I knew there wasn't 11....


...don't tell god your plans...

diamondogz74
(crash course raver)
02/12/04 08:49 AM
Re: I Admit That I Wasted Time And Space Here new [re: pablopicasso]  

Awwww! shucks,I was only gonna watch Vic and Bobs choice of Bowie video on TOTPS 2,You know how rare that video of Space Oddity is?. :-(

London Bye Ta-Ta...

dice
(every nation's refugee)
02/12/04 01:56 PM
Re: Uair eile leis an ri amadan new [re: Dara]  


is reality tour a greatest hits tour?
yes
no

View the results for this poll


show bush the door in 2004: please contribute to http://www.moveon.org
current approval rating: 51%

diamondogz74
(crash course raver)
02/12/04 02:45 PM
Re: Uair eile leis an ri amadan new [re: dice]  

Lets hope this poll puts this thread to sleep?,Its looking as NoControl has lost it,HA! HA! HA!.

London Bye Ta-Ta...

christiancode
(mortal with potential)
02/13/04 08:14 AM
SOUND + VISION 2 new [re: diamondogz74]  

IT GOES WITHOUT DOUBT THAT THE "HIT FACTOR" OF THE NEW TOUR HELPS SELL TICKETS. I REMEMBER THAT DURING THE OUTSIDE TOUR BOWIE PLAYED TO HALF-EMPTY ARENAS IN GERMANY AND SCANDINAVIA, ALTHOUGH THESE ARE USUALLY STRONG MARKETS FOR HIM. PEOPLE STAYED AWAY WHEN WORD SPREAD AROUND THAT NO "LET'S DANCE" OR "SPACE ODDITY" WOULD MAKE IT INTO THE SETLIST.

HE THEN MOVED TO MUCH SMALLER VENUES FOR EARTHLING AND THE HOURS PROMO TOUR, MOST OF THE HEATHEN GIGS WERE PERFORMED IN MEDIUM-SIZED VENUES AS WELL.

WITH HOURS AND HEATHEN AND ESPECIALLY THE GLASTONBURY GIG IN 2000 PEOPLE GOT AWARE THAT BOWIE HAD MADE UP WITH HIS PAST. THE MAIN THREAD FOR REALITY IN THE PRESS HAS BEEN THAT BOWIE PLAYS THE HITS AGAIN, AND I BELIEVE THERE IS NO DOUBT THAT THIS ANNOUNCEMENT MORE THAN ANYTHING ELSE HAS HELPED FILL ARENAS.

WHETHER REALITY IS SOUND + VISION 2 DEPENDS ON YOUR FOCUS: REALITY IS NOT A RETROSPECTIVE BUT A TOOL TO PROMOTE A NEW ALBUM, THE SONGS REHEARSED, HOWEVER, ARE 75% THE SONGS PERFORMED THROUGHOUT SOUND + VISION.

I MUST SAY THAT I ENJOYED THE REALITY GIG NOT IN SPITE BUT BECAUSE OF THE HITS. IT WAS JUST GREAT TO SEE 13.000 STAND ON THEIR CHAIRS FOR LET'S DANCE AND ZIGGY STARDUST.

I LOVED OUTSIDE FOR ITS DARING CONCEPT AND THE WONDERFULLY COURAGEOUS SETLIST, BUT THE MUTED RESPONSE WAS A BIT DEPRESSING.



bowiefanpeter
(acolyte)
02/14/04 05:00 AM
Re: SOUND + VISION 2 new [re: christiancode]  

Just out of curiosity to longtime DB fans:

When Bowie toured in 83 there was overwhelming demand for tickets. Was this due to his hit singles or that he was dipping deep into his well known material?

BFP



pablopicasso
(crash course raver)
04/29/04 10:18 AM
Re: Is Bowie defying expectations with A Reality Tour? new [re: eraserhead]  

OK, we have had another two months or so of this tour since the last post of this thread, He has been to Australia,New Zealand and Hong Kong, now he has returned to North America with European festivals to follow, we have had some new songs (Supermen, quicksand), the return of some songs from the start of the tour (battle for britain, the Motel among others) and he has played with the Polyphronic Spree. So what are peoples' views on A Reality tour now?

I didn't want to be accused of the dreaded THBDB!

"Cutn!!!!!!!!!!!!!!111!!!!!!!.!!!!!" PoorSoul 2004

Avatar courtesy of Nature_Boy

Edited by pablopicasso on 04/29/04 10:37 AM (server time).



EJSundayModerator
(acolyte)
04/29/04 10:34 AM
Is NoControl defying sanity with A Reality Tour? new [re: pablopicasso]  

Aargh, this is one of the few cases where I wish an old topic would have gotten a new thread.

And I want to believe
In the madness that calls 'now'


jabow
(kook)
04/29/04 02:03 PM
Re: Is Bowie defying expectations with A Reality Tour? new [re: pablopicasso]  

In reply to:

So what are peoples' views on A Reality tour now





I think the tour kind of sucks, i saw him in a large bad sounding hockey arena, it was one of the worst bowie concerts i have ever seen. The next few reality shows i see are in small venues so i'm sure the shows will be much better.

"You'll have to take me just the way that you find me."


prrrrr
(wild eyed peoploid)
04/29/04 02:39 PM
Re: Is Bowie defying expectations with A Reality Tour? new [re: pablopicasso]  

I've seen 4 shows so far and have one more to go. 3 of the 4 I've been floors close to, if not at front, one time non-floors. Only reason I'm saying that is to express that you get a different show if you're right up there, or if you're in the stands. I couldn' dance in the stands, but could go nuts down front and was around others who could totally relate to the amazing show unfolding before us. Don't get me wrong... I had a ball at all the shows; but they all had a different feel to me.

Defying expectations? Well, yeah he did, but only because I'd only seen him once in '87 and frankly, couldn't remember any details from that show - had crappy seats and a crappier memory. LOL

I think my favourite show so far was Ottawa. There was just a vibe there (although Quebec was awesome too). I was in front of Slicky both shows and he just blew me away.

David's voice is absolutely incredible... I can't get over how amazing he sounds. The band is tight and I really tried to focus on different members at different times of the show too. They all look like they're having fun too, which gives it a real party atmosphere up front.

I rather got a kick out of the Polyphonic Spree, by the way. I know people are split on them - to each his/her own, I guess. They were fun and I thought they were a good start to the evening. You've got to see beyond the robes, people. There's nothing wrong with a little "happy happy" every once in a while, even if just to counter all the serious/we're doomed types of stuff we get inundated with because it sounds cooler. I actually got their CD - it's good to listen to when you need a "pick-me-up", but I like them better live. Tim DeLaughter has so much energy on stage - just find him kind of contageous, huge smile, gleaming eyes and all.

prrrrr

I pray you'll soothe my sorry soul


diamondogz74
(acolyte)
04/29/04 03:09 PM
Rock on and on and on ad infinitum new [re: pablopicasso]  

In reply to:

I didn't want to be accused of the dreaded THBDB!


Now would I ever do that ?

I think the tour is going from strength to strength, i only hope his voice lasts out, its really a huge tour, maybe this is the biggest yet?.

Im longing for the "Live in Dublin" DVD release, when ever! that might be

Looking back now to the DVD that came with the Reality combo tour edition, it looks rather quite compared to the tour, yes I know it was a television studio, but none the less, it seems quite subduded, a gem none the less, for me to see him sing "Try Some,Buy Some" live, i really love that song.



______________________
Humming Rheingold
We scavenge up our clothes

______________________
London Bye Ta-Ta...

prrrrr
(wild eyed peoploid)
04/30/04 11:15 AM
Re: Rock on and on and on ad infinitum new [re: diamondogz74]  

I so agree with you on that DVD.

I remember when we went to see the Reality "release" at the theatre, I thought he and band were just fantastic. Then, when I first got and watched the DVD release I couldn't help but think that they just didn't sound as tight and he seemed unsure/nervous??, I don't know. Just goes to show how much they improve as the tour goes on. They just keep getting better and better. I've only watched the DVD once though, I'll have to have another look at it. (I thought he looked older and tired in it too... bags under the eyes and all).

Nothing compares to him being right in front of you and his interactions with the audience; he totally feeds off the crowd's excitement & reaction (or lack of). A few times he kneeled right in front of us singing - I can't even remember the song now . Sex on legs (or knees), he is.

prrrrr

I pray you'll soothe my sorry soul


diamondogz74
(acolyte)
05/01/04 07:11 AM
Attachment
Re: Rock on and on and on ad infinitum new [re: prrrrr]  

In reply to:

A few times he kneeled right in front of us singing - I can't even remember the song now . Sex on legs (or knees), he is.


I hav'nt a chance to see him on this current tour , still I do know exactly what you say
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<


______________________
Humming Rheingold
We scavenge up our clothes

______________________
London Bye Ta-Ta...

pablopicasso
(crash course raver)
05/01/04 07:23 AM
Re: Rock on and on and on ad infinitum new [re: diamondogz74]  

I have a fan recorded DVD of the Connecticut concert and it looked great, good to finally SEE what the fuss is about.
Great show.

"Cutn!!!!!!!!!!!!!!111!!!!!!!.!!!!!" PoorSoul 2004

Avatar courtesy of Nature_Boy


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