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eraserhead
(stardust savant)
01/21/04 12:14 PM
You guys are so old! [re: EJSunday]  

Ok, I re-read your post Dara and here's what I make of it now. What you're saying here:

In reply to:

The older you get, the harder it is to shock. We've seen all the tricks before, so they shouldn't surprise us. Yet some fans seem genuinely surprised by Bowie's "negative" partial retreat into the mainstream after a mid 90s spent making deliberately contrary albums.


...is that Bowie, now an old man, is finding it hard to shock people these days. All the tricks have been played, there's nothing more he could do that would surprise us. He's run out of gas, so to speak. The last time he brought forward a new, "contrary" idea/album was in 1997 with Earthling. Now that is over, that was the last new idea, that was the last trick, the last contrary album. And yet some fans (this one for example) seem surprised by this, that Bowie has to retreat back to the mainstream. Did I get it right this time?


In reply to:

EJSunday: I got bored with Iggy


That's totally OK. I never intended this to be a thread about Iggy Pop, he was just mentioned in the quote by Bowie, but this thread was really about Bowie. I'm okay with you getting bored with Iggy. Also, I've been into Iggy for about 11 years, it's not like I got into him yesterday.

But I do understand what you're saying about giving up on artists, or them giving up on your, or however you want to put it. I actually was a huge Tori Amos fan in the mid 90s, but then she released a very bad album in 1998, and followed that one up with three or four even worse albums, well, not really, but that's how I felt, so we lost contact, so to speak.

Yesterday I burned myself a Tori Amos best of CD, and decided to put one new song of hers on it, which was from the last Tori album I bought (in 2001), and, to my surprise, I liked it almost as much as some of the older, classic tracks, that got me into her. I thought that was interesting.

I almost fell out of love with Frank Black two years ago. He was my second favourite artist for a great while in the 90s and earrly 00s, but then he released a couple albums that just sounded horrible to me, especially production-wise, but he followed those up with his best album ever last Fall, and I'm as into Frank Black as I ever were (got into him thanks to Bowie, btw, in 1997)




"I speak what yah weak mind lacks" -Missy Elliott


Schenk
(grinning soul)
01/21/04 12:36 PM
Re: I Am Too Old For Retro [re: EJSunday]  

In reply to:

... started to repeat his own recipes with little adjustments


But at the latest with Reality and the tour David has start to repeat himself. For me this tour is
Heathen part 2
minus Plati, the suits, (is the fan still there?)
plus some Reality tracks, the videowall and the belt.

But this is what David likes to do, most of the fans are happy, the tix sell, so "never change a sucessful tour"? Donīt get me wrong. These concerts are very entertaining and a lot of fun, but I think the time for a change has come.

Bowie said Visconti (and presumably this band) will be involved in the next project/album. For me this is more of a threat than someting to look forward to.



Dara
(acolyte)
01/21/04 01:28 PM
Re: You guys are so old! [re: eraserhead]  

In reply to:

...is that Bowie, now an old man, is finding it hard to shock people these days. All the tricks have been played, there's nothing more he could do that would surprise us. He's run out of gas, so to speak. The last time he brought forward a new, "contrary" idea/album was in 1997 with Earthling. Now that is over, that was the last new idea, that was the last trick, the last contrary album. And yet some fans (this one for example) seem surprised by this, that Bowie has to retreat back to the mainstream. Did I get it right this time?


No. I don't think this latest Bowie direction is any more "final" than I thought his mid 90s direction was final. I remember at the time when I suggested that this was just Bowie's latest "phase" and I wouldn't be at all surprised to see him do an about face and go more mainstream in a few years, I couldn't find a single Bowie fan who agreed with me. Comments ranged from "He couldn't go mainstream any more, he doesn't know how" through "With all the money he made from Let's Dance/the Bowie bonds, he doesn't need to go mainstream any more" to "No, he'd never do that again. He hated the mid 80s and would never repeat that mistake" and "Naw, he's too old, he's just doing what he wants now and will never change that".

Those were all pretty compelling arguments at the time (way more compelling than your arguments in this thread as to why he's suddenly gone more mainstream in your view), and I was almost convinced. This time round, I'm even less convinced that this is "final Bowie". This is "now Bowie", and I'm experienced enough as a Bowie fan at this stage to not take for granted he'll be ploughing the same furrow five years from now. "Now Bowie" is thematically about getting older, mortality, spiritual confusion, reflecting on your life, and everything about "now Bowie" from the way he looks, the way he talks in interviews, the way he performs on stage, his setlists, his look and his vibe all support that. Of course you don't have to like that, but it is what it is. I keep coming back to what I said in my review of Hours at the time - middle aged angst just isn't sexy to the young and cool, so most will not be able to relate to the subject matter of Hours (and subsequently Heathen and Reality):

With the benefit of hindsight, it makes perfect sense that having resolutely refused to act his age at 50 (in the words of one Scottish TV interviewer - "Earthling, it's young people's music") and (despite what the revisionists would now have you believe) received considerable critical acclaim for Earthling at the time, Bowie would with typical perversity now put out an album that doesn't so much act his age as wallow in it.

Middle-aged angst has proven a problematic topic for most art, and particularly for rock. Teenage angst - now that's a different matter entirely. There's an endless market for teenage angst in rock, it seems, whether it's screamed a la Trent Reznor or moaned a la Morrissey. Even if the emotion is as vapidly superficial as most teenagers themselves and based on a total lack of experience (as in, I'm afraid of the big bad grown-up world, so I'll retreat to a "The world sucks, everyone sucks, existence sucks" state until I've had time to grow up), the fact is few things look cooler than a bunch of teenagers in the best physical shape they will ever be in wailing about how sad the world is. Like fawns, they are dumb, but they look so cute in their dumbness.

Middle-aged angst is about as uncool as it gets. There's nothing cool about a decaying human with only old age to look forward to whining about their lost youth. The menopause was never "in" and never will be. We look away from such things - middle aged people are supposed to "act their age" (whatever that means), shuffle off into old age without too many complaints, and then die with the minimum interference to the lives of the pretty young things wailing about what a horrible place the world is. We certainly don't want to read books about it (even books that deal with it as their central theme tend to be remembered for the scenery - Lolita for the pre-pubescent sex, Ulysses for the Dublin travel guide), watch blockbuster movies about it (coming soon to a theater near you - "Honey I'm Losing My Hair"), or buy albums about it (unless it's Dylan, and he's had health problems, God love him). And this is Bowie, people. He's expected to be cutting edge. He's supposed to go out, grab the hot new sound (Latin, right now. Hmm, good call, Dave) and fashion it in his own image, to the applause of his fans and the scorn of others.



Slan libh,

Dara

"What was the point of that In America movie? That only an inbred cretin would even think about going to live In America??" Fiona O'Kearney, 19/01/2004

Claude
(big brother)
01/21/04 03:45 PM
Re: Is Bowie defying expectations with A Reality Tour? [re: eraserhead]  

"Reality Tour" is above all a perfect financial strategy.

___________________
Claude

Emil
(stardust savant)
01/21/04 03:54 PM
Re: Is Bowie defying expectations with A Reality Tour? [re: Claude]  

You are probably right about that Claude... Bowie is into making money all the time nowadays. But do you think that means that his heart is not in this Reality tour?



pablopicasso
(wild eyed peoploid)
01/21/04 04:00 PM
Re: Is Bowie defying expectations with A Reality Tour? [re: Emil]  

For god's sake, he's going out on a world tour, going to places he hasn't been in years.
Enjoy it and stop bloody moaning about it.

This post is not directed at any one individual, I just think whatever Bowie did, some would love some would hate, It's a world tour and the world wants to hear some hits, and so does the Bowie fan, and I think he has the mix quite well, ok he's yet to sing Too Dizzy live, but i live in hope.

She's so swishy in her satin and tat,
and her frock coat and bippety boppety hat

Edited by pablopicasso on 01/21/04 05:29 PM (server time).



Claude
(big brother)
01/21/04 04:19 PM
Re: Is Bowie defying expectations with A Reality Tour? [re: Emil]  

Bowie is an "artist" but he's also a "manager". I think his perfect model is Andy Warhol.

___________________
Claude

Emil
(stardust savant)
01/21/04 05:19 PM
knock it off [re: pablopicasso]  

I was not moaning. I was conducting a serious discussion about Bowie's attitude towards playing his music.

And Claude - I think you're right, just because he's making the right financial decisions doesn't mean he's in it with his heart... at least I hope so.



poorsoul
(acolyte)
01/22/04 00:18 AM
Miffled [re: Si_rocks]  

Hmm, the only more obscure songs I really want to hear are...and Moknage Daydream.[/quote]

Very obscure, indeed.

Visitors From Alternate Universes Are People, Too

Emil
(stardust savant)
01/22/04 04:06 AM
Re: Is Bowie defying expectations with A Reality T new [re: pablopicasso]  

OK, I read your edit, Pablo... I shouldn't have taken it personally then.




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