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tonyinsf
(electric tomato)
03/15/04 01:26 PM
Morrissey: Bowie was only relevant by accident new  

Agree or disagree?

Smiths Legend Morrissey Speaks With GQ About a Reunion, Getting Older and Why David Bowie Is No Longer Glamorous
Monday March 15, 12:04 pm ET

NEW YORK, March 15 /PRNewswire/ -- In the April edition of GQ, editor-in-chief Jim Nelson was granted a rare opportunity to visit with Smith's legend, Morrissey, at his home in Los Angeles, to talk about the release of his first solo album in seven year and his former band, the Smiths:

    * On the formation of the Smiths:  "I had absolutely nothing else.  And it
was also a calling, because it instantly became successful, and it
didn't require a great deal of effort. Preparation, yes, but not the
effort."

* On the break-up of the Smiths: "It is commitment, because for me it was
a huge emotional investment, and then Johnny [Marr] simply said 'It's
over.' And I don't think he understood the investment that I had made
in it.

* On the re-formation of the Smiths: "I get tired of being asked about
re-formations, because there's really only one way to answer on a given
question, and I feel I gave the answer 112 years ago, but people still
ask me, and I can't understand why."

* On getting older: "I absolutely love it. The older I get, the better I
feel. I'm fascinated by people in their eighties and nineties.
Especially those who are still creating and living in an interesting
way.

* On David Bowie: "(He is) not the person he was. He is no longer David
Bowie at all. Now he gives people what he thinks will make them happy,
and they're yawning their heads off. And by doing that, he is not
relevant. He was only relevant by accident."

Jim Nelson's piece, Morrissey Returns! is in the April issue of GQ on newsstands nationwide on Tuesday, March 23, 2004. GQ is the leading men's general-interest magazine and part of the Conde Nast Publications, Inc.




--
"There ought to be limits to Freedom" - George W. Bush, leader of the Free World.



RabbitFighter
(acolyte)
03/15/04 01:42 PM
Re: Morrissey: Bowie was only relevant by accident new [re: tonyinsf]  

Unfortunately he might be correct. I wouldn´t call Bowie´s latest works bad but maybe predictable and yawning at times. Now let´s see and wait how Morrissey's own effort turns out, my hopes are quite high...

I'm the face of love
And this love burns cold



zigbot
(crash course raver)
03/15/04 01:53 PM
Re: Morrissey: Bowie was only relevant by accident new [re: tonyinsf]  

Harsh words! What's put a bee in Morrissey's bonnet?

zigbot

Max_M
(wild eyed peoploid)
03/15/04 01:55 PM
Re: Morrissey: Bowie was only relevant by accident new [re: RabbitFighter]  

Reality was more definitely him giving "people what he thinks will make them happy", I'm hoping his next CD will be more daring.



jabow
(kook)
03/15/04 02:14 PM
Re: Morrissey: Bowie was only relevant by accident new [re: Max_M]  

How true. Reality is the most boring bowie album i have heard in a long time. Reality tour is full of over played hits that most fans don't care if they ever hear them again.
This could all change if david does do something more experimental on the next album.

"You'll have to take me just the way that you find me."


martyn
(crash course raver)
03/15/04 02:27 PM
Re: Morrissey: Bowie was only relevant by accident new [re: tonyinsf]  

The sad thing is that Morrissey seems to think he is or ever was relevant himself.
miserable twat.




Frank_Solo
(electric tomato)
03/15/04 02:28 PM
Re: Morrissey: Bowie was only relevant by accident new [re: tonyinsf]  

I absolutely agree. Bowie was a ground breaking phenomena in the 70's. After the 80's went how they went, he's never been anything but a shadow of the 70's. The only thing that makes the new stuff worth listening too is that it refers to the old stuff in a way: The voice is quite the same, the melodies does some classic turns, and the lyrics are basicly about the same old themes.

If I hadn't heard the old stuff first, I don't think I would have liked him.

Amen!

bulletprooffaces
(kook)
03/15/04 02:29 PM
Re: Morrissey: Bowie was only relevant by accident new [re: tonyinsf]  

on the bowie part, i strongly agree with everything until the "relevent by accident" part. he was relevent because he was relevent (in the 70s). since then, he's been tired and washed up and resting on his laurels. he is no longer david bowie, hasn't been for well over twenty years now. i am definitely yawning my head off at 'reality.'

my bowie site: http://bulletprooffaces.net - now in 6 languages.
cult movies: http://www.zombiegirls.net

SugarPlumFairy
(leasing the moon)
03/15/04 02:33 PM
Re: Morrissey: Bowie was only relevant by accident new [re: martyn]  

In reply to:

miserable twat.


That's just the point. He's always been gloriously brilliant at being miserable.

And he's a smart one, too.

Martyn, it's not as if Bowie's relevance and Morrissey's relevance can be compared. Don't be such a supporter of unified mainstream culture theory.

I support sex with imaginary friends.

tonyinsf
(electric tomato)
03/15/04 02:41 PM
Re: Morrissey: Bowie was only relevant by accident new [re: Frank_Solo]  

I don't care what field you are in - you're likely to achieve greatness by your early twenties. In programming, you are considered 'over the hill' by age 25. Einstein got his nobel prize from work he did at age 24.

Bowie is great now because his work has far more substance than many of his peers, many of whom are half his age. But to judge Bowie by the younger Bowie, is unfair and (I think) ridiculous.



--
"There ought to be limits to Freedom" - George W. Bush, leader of the Free World.


pablopicasso
(electric tomato)
03/15/04 02:54 PM
Re: Morrissey: Bowie was only relevant by accident new [re: tonyinsf]  

Compare Bowie now and the likes of McCartney, Jagger, Clapton, or any from this time, which still can come up with something different. Reality maybe, to a degree, treading water, but the above have done that for twenty years.

I believe in the Power of Good
I Believe in the State of Love
I Will Fight For the Right to be Right
I Will Kill for the Good of the Fight for the Right to be Right


Soulman
(crash course raver)
03/15/04 03:24 PM
Re: Morrissey: Bowie was only relevant by accident new [re: tonyinsf]  

Bowie might not be a groundbreaker at the moment but I don't think he was(or is, however you see it) relevant by accident.

My hormones don't rage. Oh sure, they get mad sometimes, but then they just stop speaking to each other

Beltene
(electric tomato)
03/15/04 03:35 PM
Re: Morrissey: Bowie was only relevant by accident new [re: tonyinsf]  

Who the fuck is Morrissey?

A psychofag.

"Beltene, you're the nicest person in the world... You're just a big caring machine, that's what you are"- Frank_Solo


HopFrog
(mortal with potential)
03/15/04 04:24 PM
Re: Morrissey: Bowie was only relevant by accident new [re: Beltene]  

I think Mozza is pissed off at Bowie for something. Did our Dave offend him with his cover on BTWN?

Project cancelled
Tumbling central
Red Money

pablopicasso
(electric tomato)
03/15/04 04:30 PM
Re: Morrissey: Bowie was only relevant by accident new [re: HopFrog]  

Well two years later they toured together, so I doubt it. Morrisey is just reonowned for being a misery. And he hasn't done anything relevent since he split up the Smiths.

I believe in the Power of Good
I Believe in the State of Love
I Will Fight For the Right to be Right
I Will Kill for the Good of the Fight for the Right to be Right


tonyinsf
(electric tomato)
03/15/04 04:41 PM
Re: Morrissey: Bowie was only relevant by accident new [re: pablopicasso]  

Everything Morrissey said was right on the mark, if he was referring to Bowie's worst album "TONIGHT", which happen to contain a cover of a Morrissey song.
Coincidence?


--
"There ought to be limits to Freedom" - George W. Bush, leader of the Free World.

Edited by tonyinsf on 03/15/04 04:43 PM (server time).



SugarPlumFairy
(leasing the moon)
03/15/04 04:47 PM
I hate you. new [re: tonyinsf]  

In reply to:

"TONIGHT", which happen to contain a cover of a Morrissey song.


What the HELL are you talking about? There most definitely is no Morrissey cover on Tonight.

I support sex with imaginary friends.

Strawman
(stardust savant)
03/15/04 04:47 PM
Re: Morrissey: Bowie was only relevant by accident new [re: tonyinsf]  

In reply to:

if he was referring to Bowie's worst album "TONIGHT", which happens to contain a cover of a Morrissey song.


Which song is that then?




tonyinsf
(electric tomato)
03/15/04 04:54 PM
Re: I hate you. [re: SugarPlumFairy]  

My mistake!

I got mixed up with Black Tie White Noise, which is a fairly good album. Sorry!

That said, the cover sure does sound like it *belongs* on TONIGHT.


--
"There ought to be limits to Freedom" - George W. Bush, leader of the Free World.


Strawman
(stardust savant)
03/15/04 04:57 PM
Simultaneous posting... new [re: SugarPlumFairy]  

03/15/04 04:47 PM

I knew you had a crush on me. Looky at you on top.




Earthling7
(electric tomato)
03/15/04 05:03 PM
Re: Morrissey: Bowie was only relevant by accident new [re: tonyinsf]  

Spot on, I'm afraid. Bowie was groundbreaking in the 70s and then briefly in the mid-90s. He is currently just being a "elder statesman of rock" as someone of his stature is supposed to be.

And on McCartney, Elton etc. I may want to agree that Bowie is way better, fitter, more relevant, but I'm sure Macca fans will disagree. A Macca fan might point out that he has fiddled with classical music (and Bowie not), that he actually released a good album a couple of years ago (Bowie debateable) and that he put on a bloody good tour. It's all a matter of taste anyway.

Submit your live related Bowie material to BowieLive today!

CAwesome
(kook)
03/15/04 05:45 PM
Re: Morrissey: Bowie was only relevant by accident new [re: tonyinsf]  

Remember when you were relevant, Morrisey? Twat.

NEXT!

(sorry, I've always wanted to do that.)

I'll be appearing LIVE in Toronto April 1st. Sure, it's a David Bowie show but you're all coming to see me. More importantly, you're coming to see me in my awesome new pants.

kipt
(kook)
03/15/04 06:24 PM
Re: Morrissey: Bowie was only relevant by accident new [re: tonyinsf]  

Well I disagree he was relevant "by accident" but I don't know about the rest. I actually personally think Heathen was pretty different from what you'd expect the fans to "want". I mean Sunday, Heathen, A Better Future (though most will disagree with that one), I would Be Your Slave, all to me seem to be at least a bit of a step somewhere else.
On the other hand, IMO Reality is a bit more of what Morrisey describes (don't get me wrong, I do like it). To me though it seems like just a bit of a momentary thing, I wou'dn't say that it's the mean of what Bowie's been doing recently.



SysiyoModerator
(thunder ocean)
03/15/04 06:48 PM
Re: Morrissey: Bowie was only relevant by accident new [re: pablopicasso]  

In reply to:

Well two years later they toured together, so I doubt it.


But they quarreled during the tour pretty badly, and haven't been in terms since.

KArt | Project Michelangelo | LiveJournal

pablopicasso
(electric tomato)
03/15/04 06:50 PM
Re: Morrissey: Bowie was only relevant by accident new [re: Sysiyo]  

Oh right, what about?

I believe in the Power of Good
I Believe in the State of Love
I Will Fight For the Right to be Right
I Will Kill for the Good of the Fight for the Right to be Right


SysiyoModerator
(thunder ocean)
03/15/04 06:58 PM
Re: Morrissey: Bowie was only relevant by accident new [re: pablopicasso]  

Frankly, I don't remember. Morrissey later blamed Bowie for being to calculating, and there was some fighting about the setlists, I think.

KArt | Project Michelangelo | LiveJournal

zigbot
(crash course raver)
03/15/04 06:59 PM
Re: Morrissey: Bowie was only relevant by accident new [re: kipt]  

I agree that Reality is not "groundbreaking," but it is good, and better than a whole lot of what musicians have Bowie's age are littering the record stores with these days.

I agree with you, kipt, that Heathen was not a "give the fans what they want" album. Did David's fans WANT an album of songs about David's unfulfilled God searches? Probably not. But when they got it, did they like it? For the most part, yes. I adore Heathen, but I don't think it is completely "mainstream" and very commercial (with the exception of "Everyone Says Hi,"--which sounds accessible and poppy on the surface, but deals with darker issues--you'd think someone like freakin' Morrissey would actually appreciate that!).

Anyway, in summation, Morrissey is indeed a twat. I only wish I could PM Morrissey with CAwesome's avatar of Bowie giving the finger. Extremely a propos that!

zigbot

pablopicasso
(electric tomato)
03/15/04 07:14 PM
Re: Morrissey: Bowie was only relevant by accident new [re: zigbot]  

Yeah Reality isn't groundbreaking, as you said though Zigbot, it is still good though.
I don't think any of his comtempories come close.
E.G. Bowie made this album as he knew it would tour well, and he needed to get a round the world tour out of his system again. Every Rolling Stones album these days is followed by a tour, so each of their albums are now just geared for that and to fit in with the classics. quite often the tour is followed by a live cd. At least Bowie does what he wants.and not just what is expeceted.

I believe in the Power of Good
I Believe in the State of Love
I Will Fight For the Right to be Right
I Will Kill for the Good of the Fight for the Right to be Right


zigbot
(crash course raver)
03/15/04 07:20 PM
Re: Morrissey: Bowie was only relevant by accident new [re: pablopicasso]  

Well said, pablo. Now if Bowie's next three albums were just variations on Reality, I'd start complaining too. But you are right that there is nothing wrong with occasionally writing an album that "tours well." Hmm . . . but even if Bowie did three more Realities, if he actually TOURED after each one, I'd have to eat crow in advance and admit up front that I don't think I'd be complaining.

But I don't think David will just do more of the same, as I'm fairly certain he still has some interesting experimentation left in him.

zigbot

JonnyManic
(stardust savant)
03/15/04 10:00 PM
he's just bitter that he's so fat new [re: tonyinsf]  

zzz...

The only reason Morrisey wasn't swinging from a light-fitting in the mid-eighties is because Johnny Marr was such a great songwriter.

For relaxing times, make it Suntory time.

Marquis
(acolyte)
03/15/04 10:29 PM
The Bitter Gets Better new [re: JonnyManic]  

According to Pitchfork, Morissey's next album will be produced by the guy who produces Blink 182. Perhaps he and Bowie are having a contest as to who can become the worst washed up purveyor of Adult Contemporary swill.

Look around this room and tell me what you could have (x25)

Jubany
(wild eyed peoploid)
03/15/04 11:39 PM
Re: The Bitter Gets Better new [re: Marquis]  

I love Mo. Or, better, I love the Smiths, but I think that, besides personal opinions about whether he is right or not, he's in the worst position to talk about Bowie in that way. I mean, I adore him. He's been part of one of the greatest songwriting partnerships of all times. But then he did nothing better or, at least, as good as that for the next fifteen years.
Anyway, I'm anxiously wainting for "You are the quarry"

I'll be a rocknrollin' bitch...

AdamAdministrator
(acolyte)
03/16/04 01:43 AM
He hates it when his friends become successful new [re: JonnyManic]  

It's pretty typical of Morrissey to behave like this.

The thing is - Morrissey's last two albums - Maladjusted and Southpaw Grammar - were not only irrelevant but they were just plain bad and I say that as a big fan of his solo work.

As someone else explained, Heathen and Reality are not the pinnacle of high art but they are solid albums. Moreover, they were released in the last three years whilst all the Moz has achieved in the last 7 is a big FUCK ALL!

The bottom line - Moz is jealous of Bowie's critical renaissance.

Needless to say, this is the man who wrote a song titled "We hate it when our friends become successful".....




Bowie in Australia 2004 | Join the Community

Earthling on Fire
(electric tomato)
03/16/04 02:24 AM
Re: Morrissey: Bowie was only relevant by accident new [re: Sysiyo]  

In reply to:

Frankly, I don't remember. Morrissey later blamed Bowie for being to calculating, and there was some fighting about the setlists, I think.


As far as I remember, Bowie criticized Stephen for his "lack of professionalism", which is hardly a surprise coming from a performer who sang as best he could in the face of the flu a few months ago, to the world champion of cancellations.
I suppose the fey one couldn't sing tonight for his life, couldn't go on stage unless this or that, had such a headache and so on. I guess that's the sort of thing that would irritate Bowie.
As for being relevant, I can only say: look who's talking.

Wear your wound with honour.

Roxy641
(electric tomato)
03/16/04 03:01 AM
Attachment
Re: Morrissey: Bowie was only relevant by accident new [re: Earthling on Fire]  

I think it is just sad that Morrissey would criticise Bowie who I always thought was one of his heros.

Roxy641

STEVE'S bi PAGEhttp://uk.geocities.com/lawlorsteve/bisex.html

Earthling on Fire
(electric tomato)
03/16/04 03:27 AM
Re: Morrissey: Bowie was only relevant by accident new [re: Roxy641]  

And I think it is sad that everything Morrissey ever writes or says reeks of either sheer stupidity or petty spitefulness except this: "it's so easy to laugh/it's so easy to hate/it takes guts to be gentle and kind"... but then it might have been ironical, iroy being a definingly frequent feature with this sad, frustrated type.

Wear your wound with honour.

Earthling on Fire
(electric tomato)
03/16/04 03:38 AM
Re: He hates it when his friends become successful new [re: Adam]  

In reply to:

all the Moz has achieved in the last 7 is a big FUCK ALL!


Yes, isn't that great. I mean after Southpaw Grammar, which may have the most disgusting cover ever, the most horrible production ever (with a sound not unlike some of the worse pseudo-prog artefact of the early '70s in a very heavy and unfocused way), some of the sloppiest so-called songwriting ever (beginning with the opening theme of Shostakovitch's 5th symphony repeated over and over over 10 fucking minutes - very imaginative, eh)... the best we can hope is that he never releases anything ever any more ever ever, but finally gets a life instead. It's the only possible way to take the poison out of him, PROVIDED the poison only comes frustration and not sheer constitutional malice.

Wear your wound with honour.

LByron
(mortal with potential)
03/16/04 03:44 AM
Re: Morrissey: Bowie was only relevant by accident new [re: tonyinsf]  

Morrisey is not relevant, and is definitely boring! Hope he will not make another album for the next 70 years!!!



EJSundayModerator
(acolyte)
03/16/04 04:05 AM
Morrissey Isn't Even A Smithereen In Pop History new [re: tonyinsf]  

In reply to:

He was only relevant by accident


Moanrissey was only relevant by mistake. Speaks for itself that he needed the musically rather miserable 80s to become a little famous. He has never come up with anything that made me happy - that is apart from pulling out of his support slot for Bowie's Berlin gig on the Outside tour. Defintely the best thing that this miserable vocalist has ever done for me. (I once endured a Johnny Marr show - boy, that was so bad)

And talking with Morrissey about current music is like talking to Maggie Thatcher about modern economics.

And I want to believe
In the madness that calls 'now'


bowiefanpeter
(acolyte)
03/16/04 04:47 AM
Re: Morrissey Isn't Even A Smithereen In Pop History new [re: EJSunday]  

I think Bowie started this little quarrel by making some offhand comments during TM1 press Q interview. The Smiths may have still been intact at the time. DB called M's vocal melodies "weak". Bowie also stole M's hairstyle for the 90 tour. They have crossed paths a number of times, and have both traded subversive barbs, so it's hard to tell who's instigating what.

The only way M can get press for his latest disc is slag DB.

M may have a valid point, but I don't think it's a good idea for him to make such comments. If you really want to insult DB, make a better album than him!!!!!

While I do consider myself a fan of Morrissey's solo and group work I find the "sound" of his records suprisingly similar over the past 20 years.

BFP



EJSundayModerator
(acolyte)
03/16/04 04:54 AM
Re: Morrissey Isn't Even A Smithereen In Pop History new [re: bowiefanpeter]  

In reply to:

I find the "sound" of his records suprisingly similar over the past 20 years


The only chance to distinguish between two Smiths/Morrissey songs is to wait for the words in the chorus.

And I want to believe
In the madness that calls 'now'


bowiefanpeter
(acolyte)
03/16/04 05:12 AM
Re: Morrissey Isn't Even A Smithereen In Pop History new [re: EJSunday]  

<<wait for the chorus>>

It's just like attending a Dylan concert!!!!(I've been to 4) Morrissey cancelled his last Vancouver appearance.

BFP

PS I've heard a few whispered rumours about M being a big pothead. Anybody?



EJSundayModerator
(acolyte)
03/16/04 05:15 AM
The Joy Of Seeing Dylan new [re: bowiefanpeter]  

In reply to:

It's just like attending a Dylan concert!!!!


I just saw Twister's name in the "Who's online" section. Can't wait for his reply to this blasphemic remark.

And I want to believe
In the madness that calls 'now'


AdamAdministrator
(acolyte)
03/16/04 05:28 AM
twister new [re: EJSunday]  

Finding true love could have made twister whimsical....so we will have to wait and see.....

Right now he appears to engaged in the relaying of private messages.



Bowie in Australia 2004 | Join the Community

EJSundayModerator
(acolyte)
03/16/04 05:44 AM
Re: twister new [re: Adam]  



And I want to believe
In the madness that calls 'now'


SoulLoveChild
(stardust savant)
03/16/04 06:04 AM
just caught this topic at BWW also new [re: tonyinsf]  

ummm... who the fuck is Morrissey and what the hell is he doing these days? What has he ever done that is relevant?

I would have been a massive Morrissey fan if I could have gotten through one single Smiths album. Best thing Johnny Marr ever did was The The.


Get Bowie Back Downunder!
GBBD 2005 !!!!





diamondogz74
(stardust savant)
03/16/04 06:06 AM
Re: Morrissey: Bowie was only relevant by accident new [re: zigbot]  

RE: What's put a bee in Morrissey's bonnet?.

Two words zigbot

1/Has
2/Been
Oh lets chuck in a third for some fun,Jealousy.


________________________
Humming Rheingold
We scavenge up our clothes.
________________________
London Bye Ta-Ta...

romanticfool
(crash course raver)
03/16/04 08:07 AM
Bowie vs. Morrissey new [re: diamondogz74]  

Heaven knows I'm miserable now? You sure are, Morrissey.

I can hardly ever take anything M says seriously, because he's such a whiner, but mostly he just makes me laugh.

Bowie: changed the face of music, forever.

Morrissey: makes music people kill themselves to.

There's no competition.

Itte kimasu

RabbitFighter
(acolyte)
03/16/04 09:48 AM
Re: Bowie vs. Morrissey new [re: romanticfool]  

In reply to:

Morrissey: makes music people kill themselves to


That's the very reason why I adore the guy.

I'm the face of love
And this love burns cold



Tristan
(acolyte)
03/16/04 10:15 AM
Re: just caught this topic at BWW also new [re: SoulLoveChild]  

In reply to:

Best thing Johnny Marr ever did was The The.


Another The The fan?


If you don't have anything nice to say, go to London and say it in front of 2000 people. NM.

Emilio
(crash course raver)
03/16/04 10:54 AM
Re: Morrissey: Bowie was only relevant by accident new [re: RabbitFighter]  

"Unfortunately he might be correct. I wouldn´t call Bowie´s latest works bad but maybe predictable and yawning at times."

That's what I thought about him in the mid-80's, that he had become predictable, popular and commercial. Time showed he still had a few surprises up his sleeve, though.



Lady Androgyne.
(kook)
03/16/04 02:43 PM
Re: Morrissey: Bowie was only relevant by accident new [re: tonyinsf]  

In reply to:

(He is) not the person he was. He is no longer David Bowie at all


That's just crap, David is always David, whatever he does, that's the thing about him, he always change. Can't label him.
I don't know what Morrisey means, but if he means David was himself in the 70's I think he'd better do his homework.

Bolan likes to rock now
Yes he does yes he does


diamondogz74
(stardust savant)
03/16/04 03:23 PM
Re: Bowie vs. Morrissey new [re: romanticfool]  

He most certainly is a whiner.

He is depressing and quite drab is'nt he.

Plus he lives in Los Angeles,The place where plastic smiles are to be found in abundance,Lets hope hes got enuff pennies left to buy a slight smirk!.


________________________
Humming Rheingold
We scavenge up our clothes.
________________________
London Bye Ta-Ta...

Tristan
(acolyte)
03/16/04 08:46 PM
Re: Morrissey: Bowie was only relevant by accident new [re: Emilio]  

In reply to:

That's what I thought about him in the mid-80's, that he had become predictable, popular and commercial.


Seems like we're back in the mid-80's again to me.

If you don't have anything nice to say, go to London and say it in front of 2000 people. NM.

poorsoul
(acolyte)
03/16/04 11:32 PM
Killing new [re: tonyinsf]  

In reply to:

(He is) not the person he was.



Noone can deny that, though lacking a stated point of comparison does make the following comment hard to appraise.

In reply to:

He is no longer David Bowie at all. Now he gives people what he thinks will make them happy



Ignoring the first sentence, I think he's absolutely right. Look at Tin Machine, look at 1. Outside, even 'hours...' - this projects all occured because Bowie was making the music that he wanted to make, regardless of what the critics thought of them (which, in most cases, wasn't much).

Why did Heathen and Reality gain such good receptions? Because it was the type of music the critics wanted to hear: a lower-key, more conservative, straight-edged, 'normal' Bowie. His songwriting is, for the most part, solid but far from groundbreaking. As soon as he starts to be daring again (which I doubt will occur in time for the next album), they'll start turning away again and begin to speculate on "his best album since Reality".

In reply to:

and they're yawning their heads off.



Unfortunately, he's dead wrong there. Everyone loves mediocrity.

In reply to:

And by doing that, he is not relevant. He was only relevant by accident.



Both statements are true: by making music that maintains the status quo, Bowie isn't going to be remembered for making an impact. And since he's already flirted with pop stardom, he's hardly likely to shift the opinions of the Phil Collins fans, who chant for him to sing China Girl and look perplexed when he starts singing Fantastic Voyage or The Motel.

So why does that make him irrelevant? Look how many bands his music has influenced and what their top picks are. Chances are they'll pick something from 1971 to 1980. How many were inspired by Let's Dance or Never Let Me Down? None, because they were simply products of their time and, as such, now sound horribly dated and, in the end, I think that's how Reality will be viewed, as a fairly typical album from the early noughties. Why else would he tour with such bland supporting bands as The Dandy Warhols or Something For Kate, when nine years ago he was singing duets with Trent Reznor?

As for the final comment, of course he was "relevant by accident". He didn't chose to influence so many future musicians, who could just have easily listened to Bob Dylan or The Police. What he did do, though, was try to make music which stood out from the crowd, which brought new elements into mainstream rock and it's for that that he will ultimately be remembered.

DIY

diamondogz74
(stardust savant)
03/17/04 06:30 AM
Re: Morrissey: Bowie was only relevant by accident new [re: Tristan]  

Never ever again will there be a mid-80s period in Bowies career.

You ought to know better dear Tristan.


________________________
Humming Rheingold
We scavenge up our clothes.
________________________
London Bye Ta-Ta...

SysiyoModerator
(thunder ocean)
03/17/04 07:53 AM
Re: Morrissey: Bowie was only relevant by accident new [re: diamondogz74]  

In reply to:

Never ever again will there be a mid-80s period in Bowies career.

You ought to know better dear Tristan.


Based on what? To me it seems he's plunging headlong into similar mentility. Only back then he was plunging into commercial music of the day to make cash. Today he's plunging into his past to make cash.

KArt | Project Michelangelo | LiveJournal

BigFatDog
(absolute beginner )
03/17/04 11:42 AM
Re: Morrissey: Bowie was only relevant by accident new [re: Sysiyo]  

Yeah, exactly - quite rightly too.

Bowie isn't where he is today by releasing albums like Reality, but quite simply because of his amazing back catalogue. When I see him in concert I like hearing songs from the early days (MWSTW etc.), Ziggy and the supposed "commerical music" as you so elequently put it, right the way through to today.

It would be disgraceful if he didn't play his backlog, stabbing those who have followed him for years in the back.



EJSundayModerator
(acolyte)
03/17/04 11:51 AM
Past It Ain't new [re: Sysiyo]  

In reply to:

Today he's plunging into his past to make cash.


Which is defintely wrong concerning "Heathen". Not an album of the past, not at all.


And I want to believe
In the madness that calls 'now'


Grey_Nihilist
(electric tomato)
03/17/04 12:20 PM
My Two Cents. new [re: EJSunday]  

I do think Morrissey has a bit of a point. But then again, he's also a navel-gazing, pretentious pseudo-intellectual who sings like a drugged muppet. Without Johnny Marr, he is nothing.

"It's not who does it first, it's who does it second" - Bowie.

SysiyoModerator
(thunder ocean)
03/17/04 12:31 PM
Re: Past It Ain't new [re: EJSunday]  

In reply to:

Which is defintely wrong concerning "Heathen". Not an album of the past, not at all.


Not overall, perhaps, but there are quite a few retroactive moments in the album. Songs like Slow Burn, Afraid and perhaps Gemini Spaceship do dip into the past, in some form or another. But I admit this phenomenon is more notable on the Reality album and tour.

And I'm not saying BTW that Bowie shouldn't perform his old songs on tour. Of course he should, they're all good songs, the hits and fan favourites alike. I certainly wouldn't want to hear a tour that plays only tracks from Reality.

KArt | Project Michelangelo | LiveJournal

EuropeanCanon
(crash course raver)
03/17/04 03:30 PM
Queen Bitch new [re: tonyinsf]  

In terms of questioning Bowie's relevance, Morrissey indeed has a perfectly valid point. But what detracts from his view is the bitchy sniping from someone who, since the shenanigans of the Outside tour, feels affronted by his hero. This isn't unique to Morrissey. We've seen similar barbs directed towards Bowie from Gary Numan after a perceived snub from Bowie about 25 years ago. I'm quite sure that John Lydon is an admirer of Bowie, but he too has insulted Bowie on a personal level after some slur or other from Bowie towards Lydon (Lydon being thrown out of an Iggy gig at Bowie's prompting?). However, it's in Lydon's punk remit to slag all and sundry and Bowie does seem to have been spared Lydon's vitriol more than most.

It's nigh on impossible in such an increasingly youthful and ageist genre for Bowie to occupy the same relevance as he did throughout the 1970s/early 80s, an unparalleled lengthy golden period of creative highs and of genuine cultural change kick-started by Bowie. But Bowie is involved in an industry where 30-35 year olds are often viewed as elder statesmen (ie "past it") and as such, many of their moves are open to question and ridicule with accusations of hypocrisy and the like. In another aspect, though, Bowie is still relevant, but it's a relevance born from the unchartered territory that he and a small minority of his peers currently inhabit.

It has been acknowledged by Bowie himself that he's seen as being amongst the first wave of "old" rock stars who find themselves having to justify and best articulate their position. Set against the backdrop of the consensus, who view them as an irrelevance and passe, these fifty and sixty year old somethings are guinea pigs to the current crop of the younger, so-called more relevant generation who face the same problems 20 or 30 years down the line and are looking to the preceeding generation of pop/rock stars to see how, if possible, it is done.

It's a problem that has occupied Bowie for some while, from the mid-life crisis and self-doubts of a personal and creative nature (Never Let Me Down, Tin Machine), attempts at relevance to a younger audience (1.Outside, Earthling) through to a final acceptance of age and the attendant concerns associated with the ageing process (' hours...', Heathen and Reality).

Bowie is still relevant. As a similarly iconographic figure of a later decade, with his best also considered to be well-behind him, Stephen Patrick Morrissey needs to qualify his so-far unconvincing relevance.



Ich heisse super fantastische

Claude
(big brother)
03/17/04 05:31 PM
Re: Morrissey: Bowie was only relevant by accident new [re: tonyinsf]  

Morrissey is an accident!

___________________
Claude

Claude
(big brother)
03/17/04 06:35 PM
Re: Morrissey: Bowie was only relevant by accident new [re: Tristan]  

Who is Morrissey? DAVID BOWIE is a rockstar!

___________________
Claude

Dara
(acolyte)
03/18/04 05:47 AM
Whorissey? new [re: EuropeanCanon]  

In reply to:

Bowie is still relevant. As a similarly iconographic figure of a later decade, with his best also considered to be well-behind him, Stephen Patrick Morrissey needs to qualify his so-far unconvincing relevance.


Indeed. In the ageist ambiance of rock, relevance tends to be measured in the ongoing impact of an artist on youth. If that's the yardstick, then there's little doubt in my mind that Bowie's relevance outstrips that of Morrissey by leagues. Morrissey has his fans, but essentially it's an ageing cult. His impact on those too young to remember the Smiths is negligible these days.

I'll never forget the shock of talking to a group of teenagers a few years ago (friends of my son) about music, when I mentioned Morrissey and my son was the only one who had even heard of him! You know, the guy from the Smiths? They'd never heard of The Smiths either. And these were guys who were all into music, with about 6000 hours of downloaded stuff on their computers.

They'd all heard of Bowie. Most had at least one Bowie Best Of.

Slan libh,

Dara

Living means accepting the loss of one joy after another Vladimir Nabokov

EJSundayModerator
(acolyte)
03/18/04 05:53 AM
Die Schmidts new [re: Dara]  

In reply to:

those too young to remember


I am too old to forget them, unfortunately.

And I want to believe
In the madness that calls 'now'


diamondogz74
(stardust savant)
03/18/04 07:55 AM
Re: Morrissey: Bowie was only relevant by accident new [re: Sysiyo]  

I meant in that reply to Tristan, That there will never be a mid 1980s point,I was talking about the politics of that time which influenced everyone i should imagine?.

America had Reagan
UK had Thatcher

That mixture being enough to make any artist plunge in the depths of dispair and commercialism.

We have a completely different world now ( thank goodness),Albeit an uncertain world,This uncertainess giving artists a new edge on their work.

And Bowie now lives in New York,So thats my basis for that statement.

I really do think we are in for some very experimental times ahead with Bowie.


________________________
Humming Rheingold
We scavenge up our clothes.
________________________
London Bye Ta-Ta...

karmastarman
(wild eyed peoploid)
03/18/04 09:37 AM
Re: Morrissey: Bowie was only relevant by accident new [re: Claude]  

You're right Claude!
Morrissey is not famous at all, or at least I've never heard of him. Who cares what he thinks?

Time may change me, but I can't change time

Earthling on Fire
(electric tomato)
03/18/04 02:13 PM
Re: Morrissey: Bowie was only relevant by accident new [re: karmastarman]  

In reply to:

Morrissey is not famous at all, or at least I've never heard of him. Who cares what he thinks?


That means your opinion is still far less interesting than Morrissey's, and that Elton John's is invaluable.

Wear your wound with honour.

hangontoyourself
(kook)
03/18/04 03:03 PM
Re: Morrissey: Bowie was only relevant by accident new [re: karmastarman]  

HAHAHAHHAHAH morrisset not famous???
however, not famous enough to make comments on bowie. who is??? except for maybe paul mccartney, but he's a wanker anyway.

If you think we're gonna make it...
http://groups.msn.com/keithism

pablopicasso
(electric tomato)
03/18/04 04:15 PM
Re: Morrissey: Bowie was only relevant by accident new [re: hangontoyourself]  

Morrisset?????

Isn't that ironic, don't you think?

I believe in the Power of Good
I Believe in the State of Love
I Will Fight For the Right to be Right
I Will Kill for the Good of the Fight for the Right to be Right


CAwesome
(kook)
03/18/04 04:23 PM
Re: Morrissey: Bowie was only relevant by accident new [re: pablopicasso]  

No, the irony is a person singing about irony that doesn't sing about one thing that's actually ironic.

I'll be appearing LIVE in Toronto April 1st. Sure, it's a David Bowie show but you're all coming to see me. More importantly, you're coming to see me in my awesome new pants.

EJSundayModerator
(acolyte)
03/18/04 04:59 PM
It's Like Rajjiiijajane new [re: CAwesome]  

In reply to:

the irony is a person singing about irony that doesn't sing about one thing that's actually ironic.


I had a nice little exchange about exactly that point and that super-dumb song quite a while ago in this thread with an ex-TWer under the name of thedeathcard82. Have a look at our exchange, if you like.

And I want to believe
In the madness that calls 'now'


pablopicasso
(electric tomato)
03/18/04 05:18 PM
Re: It's Like Rajjiiijajane new [re: EJSunday]  

Wow there was actually a post from Tatu_wi or whatever in that post, the first i have ever seen as a relative newcomer, if there are any mostakes in this message it is because i have just had a bottle of wone.

I believe in the Power of Good
I Believe in the State of Love
I Will Fight For the Right to be Right
I Will Kill for the Good of the Fight for the Right to be Right


bowiefanpeter
(acolyte)
03/18/04 09:26 PM
Re: It's Like Rajjiiijajane new [re: pablopicasso]  

Does anybody have any pictures of both Morrissey and Bowie together?

I think Bowie should "respond" to M by working with Johnny Marr.

BFP



lazender
(grinning soul)
03/18/04 09:45 PM
Re: Morrissey: Bowie was only relevant by accident new [re: bulletprooffaces]  

i THINK What morrissey meant by saying BOWIE was only
"relevent by accident" , is BOWIE would go in to the studio and just create , and he is always best when he is unafraid and trying ideas that he is not sure will happen ,but he DOES know that the process in getting there will unveil interesting , original creative ,cutting edge material.
example: BERLIN TRILOGY, OUTSIDE,DIAMOND DOGS .
(write a poem without thinking to much , cut out each sentence & rearange them, u may not know how it will turn out , but some very cool ideas happen that you may not have come about normally)
at least WE can always count on a bad bowie album being as good as most earthling artist's ! kinda like bad sex, its still better then no sex.........


"today i was an evil one"

poorsoul
(acolyte)
03/18/04 09:52 PM
Minister new [re: Dara]  

In reply to:

In the ageist ambiance of rock, relevance tends to be measured in the ongoing impact of an artist on youth. If that's the yardstick, then there's little doubt in my mind that Bowie's relevance outstrips that of Morrissey by leagues.



There's no doubt that Bowie's work in the 70s has had a huge impact in shaping numerous musical acts but what do you think the impact of his current work will be in, say, ten years' time? How many bands are going to be inspired by the sounds of 'hours...' or Reality?

In reply to:

I'll never forget the shock of talking to a group of teenagers a few years ago (friends of my son) about music, when I mentioned Morrissey and my son was the only one who had even heard of him!



Nice story but a bit beside the point. Still, at least they weren't listening to Linkin Park. But are you sure they have 6000 hours of music? Minutes, perhaps, or megabytes but surely not hours (unless you're talking collectively, in which case there's bound to be a lot of doubling anyway.

DIY

th0mas
(acolyte)
03/19/04 01:12 PM
Re: Minister new [re: poorsoul]  

hours... did not really have any impact but certainly went in a direction music went anyway - reduction. using the new technics to create less. which i think got a movement many kinds of art took at that time.
not that bowie would have influenced anybody with his album, but he headed towards the right direction. and unlike reality he did this before the trend really hit the mainstream.

shit, i went completly off-topic, once again... sorry.
next time i have such a glourious idea, i will start a new hours... thread, promised!

"Have you tried... not being a mutant?"

Edited by th0mas on 03/19/04 01:22 PM (server time).



Strawman
(stardust savant)
03/19/04 03:39 PM
Want to...But I can't... new [re: tonyinsf]  

I could never say anything derogatory about Morrissey.

He made me a pile of money in the late eighties.



bowiefanpeter
(acolyte)
03/20/04 07:03 AM
Re: Morrissey: Bowie was only relevant by accident new [re: tonyinsf]  

Bowie interview for TM1 Q#33 June 1989 P. 70:

DB: (Talking about current english music scene)...What is happening there at the moment?

Q: Hardcore, deep house, various types of world music, Morrissey is still very popular....

DB: Oh he isn't bad. I thihnk he is an excellent lyric writer. I've never been able to come to term with his melodies. I'm a suck for an old fashioned melody and I find his very disparate. They tail off a lot. But I think his lyrics are absolutely superb. One of the better writer than England -- and it's very English -- has produced over the past few years. I don't know much about his image or what he's about because I've never seen him live but I like the records.
-------------

That's all the Morrissey part of the interview. I recalled this because of all the 100's of DB interviews he never goes into great detail on other current artists. The quote, including this magazine profile, is intentionally designed by Bowie to be read by Morrissey himself. This quote, which could be construed as a backhanded compliment, also predates the 95 tour debacle.

The only thing I can add about this interview is that it's from the TM period. Bowie has still dating the Glass Spider Dancer, had yet to meet Iman and was still in a "cranky" state(listen to TM1 if you want proof)

I just wanted to add this quote because Bowie was, then, in the creative gutter. And he took some verbal jabs at Morrissey. Bowie hasn't made his own barbed comments in magazines.

BFP



AdamAdministrator
(acolyte)
03/20/04 08:07 AM
Re: Morrissey: Bowie was only relevant by accident new [re: bowiefanpeter]  

The whole notion of Bowie being this despised person I found very encouraging. The daily tabloids wrote hateful things and there were only one or two people at school who'd actually confess to liking David Bowie. I don't think that level of outrage exists anymore, people have forgotten how dramatic and serious it really was.

"The Slade and Faces contingents were particularly aggressive people, while those who liked Bowie, Mott The Hoople and Lou Reed tended to be slightly more passive and easily picked on. I remember standing outside concert halls in the early '70s, people would just walk past you and start kicking the queue. Everybody would just cower under a mass of Afghan coats."


Morrissey, 1988



Bowie in Australia 2004 | Join the Community

AdamAdministrator
(acolyte)
03/20/04 08:26 AM
Re: Morrissey: Bowie was only relevant by accident new [re: bowiefanpeter]  

I always thought of the English singer/songwriter Morrissey as a sort of a asexual Alan Bennett, the British playwright, because of his attention to detail. He will take a small subject matter and make a very grandeur statement of it.

His last album, "Your Arsenal", was produced, ironically, by Mick Ronson. Mick sent me a copy of the tape and I couldn´t but notice that one of the songs on the album, "I Know It´s Gonna Happen Someday", was kind of a parody of one of my earlier songs, "Rock´n Roll Suicide". And so I sort of thought it would be fun to take that song and do it the way I would have done it."


- David Bowie 1993


Bowie in Australia 2004 | Join the Community


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