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BowieTalk
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JonnyManic
(stardust savant)
04/08/04 09:56 PM
it's like talking to Robbie The Robot on crack new [re: NoControl]  

Ok, this post is your opinions strung out again and not even convincingly. So I'll cut through the remarkably idiotic chaff (Particularly your utterly ignorant idea about dodecaphony which you clearly have no concept of).

In reply to:

Want more? Or do you need another napkin?


Your just making a list of a few things Zappa did! You're not proving a greater level of innovation since innovation is not quantifiable, one man's innovation is another's irrelevancy. You're certainly not providing any argument to show that Zappa produced a more conceptually experimental album than Low that was as popular as Low. I would actually argue that Low's diversity of texture, musical style, use overt use oif minimalist techniques makes it a far more groundbreaking piece of popular music. Zappa's music followed an organic trend. Bowie's Low was a complete departure from previous work and was not in any way typical of a pop record. "Warszawa" and "Subterreneans" would never have been expected on a pop album, but certainly not alongside the honky-tonk squall of "Be My Wife" or the driving, percussive "What In The World". Zappa's popular music, despite his experimentation within it, largely followed established rock/jazz trends. His more experimental work, like his collected improvisations etc. is not in any way popular or widely distributed. This is the arguement. You don't have a logical arguement, you have an arbitrary list that you've pulled out of a book or website. There is no discourse, you''re simply regurgitating facts as if they are empirical evidence.

In reply to:

Insults are your only way of somehow reassuring yourself that you're right, when in fact you have no logical rebutal at all.


No, insults are fun to throw at you because your such an obvious, insecure target. You need to trumpet your opinion as though it's fact like a shield. You're absurd obsession with album sales and statistics simply indicates you will die a virgin. I've provided nothing but logical arguement. You're throwing up a load of statistics because you are incapable of formulating any coherant arguement to back up your assertions.

Besides, we all know who's won the arguement. Hell, I could have posted a shopping list and I'd win the arguement because everyone thinks you're a sad prick. But I win the arguement because I have one. You just have vitriol and a music biography.

He's the son of a bad man...

NoControl
(electric tomato)
04/08/04 10:31 PM
Re: it's like talking to Robbie The Robot on crack new [re: JonnyManic]  

"Your just making a list of a few things Zappa did! You're not proving a greater level of innovation since innovation is not quantifiable, one man's innovation is another's irrelevancy. You're certainly not providing any argument to show that Zappa produced a more conceptually experimental album than Low that was as popular as Low. I would actually argue that Low's diversity of texture, musical style, use overt use oif minimalist techniques makes it a far more groundbreaking piece of popular music. Zappa's music followed an organic trend. Bowie's Low was a complete departure from previous work and was not in any way typical of a pop record. "Warszawa" and "Subterreneans" would never have been expected on a pop album, but certainly not alongside the honky-tonk squall of "Be My Wife" or the driving, percussive "What In The World". Zappa's popular music, despite his experimentation within it, largely followed established rock/jazz trends. His more experimental work, like his collected improvisations etc. is not in any way popular or widely distributed. This is the arguement. You don't have a logical arguement, you have an arbitrary list that you've pulled out of a book or website. There is no discourse, you''re simply regurgitating facts as if they are empirical evidence."

Fuck, are you a joker or something? Regurgitating facts? Websites? No discourse or proof? ROTFLMFAO. All I've done in this thread is prove that Frank is the most experimental/innovative artist of the 20 century, if not ever. Invest in some reading lessons, if you're serious about this crap you spew. You obviously know nothing about his music whatsoever. Frank wasn't a follower, he was pioneer, a genious and a leader. And if Frank wasn't that popular, then why did he continually perform in or sell out 10-15,000 seat arenas (or the equivalent of) the world over, in: Detroit, New York City, Washington, DC, Philadelphia, Boston, Los Angeles, San Francisco, Toronto, Chicago, Montreal, London, Rotterdam, Paris, Sydney, Melbourne, Rome, etc., on every one of his concert tours since 1973? He was even equalling Bowie's concert drawing power in Europe from 1977-1982. Stick to your BS Coffee Shop topics or something...

But I gotta admit, at least you're funny as hell. Seriously.


"No, insults are fun to throw at you because your such an obvious, insecure target. You need to trumpet your opinion as though it's fact like a shield. You're absurd obsession with album sales and statistics simply indicates you will die a virgin. I've provided nothing but logical arguement. You're throwing up a load of statistics because you are incapable of formulating any coherant arguement to back up your assertions.

Die a virgin, huh? I get more tail then you could ever imagine. But that's beside the point.

The only way to describe you is that you're a complete and total idiot!

"Besides, we all know who's won the arguement. Hell, I could have posted a shopping list and I'd win the arguement because everyone thinks you're a sad prick. But I win the arguement because I have one. You just have vitriol and a music biography."

You haven't won anything but your own jerk-off ceremony and pissing contest.




A wrong assumption of myself on the part of you.

CAwesome
(kook)
04/08/04 10:42 PM
Re: it's like talking to Robbie The Robot on crack new [re: NoControl]  

In reply to:

And if Frank wasn't that popular, then why did he continually perform in or sell out 10-15,000 seat arenas (or the equivalent of) the world over, in: Detroit, New York City, Washington, DC, Philadelphia, Boston, Los Angeles, San Francisco, Toronto, Chicago, Montreal, London, Rotterdam, Paris, Sydney, Melbourne, Rome, etc., on every one of his concert tours since 1973? He was even equalling Bowie's concert drawing power in Europe from 1977-1982.


In reply to:

Regurgitating facts?


Yes you are.

I'll be appearing LIVE in London May 14th. Sure, it's a David Bowie show but you're all coming to see me. More importantly, you're coming to see me in my awesome new pants.

RabbitFighter
(acolyte)
04/08/04 10:57 PM
Re: it's like talking to Robbie The Robot on crack new [re: NoControl]  

In reply to:

You're absurd obsession with album sales and statistics simply indicates you will die a virgin


For the love of god (or some other insignificant twat) Johnny, don't go there! Pretty soon NoControl (also known as the pitiful bastard who needs to be put down like a dog) will try to suck you into a furious dickmeasuring contest and we all know just how ugly that can get.

"yes, I think I will experience a light depression around 9:00 Wednesday which will worsen until 13:00, after which I will probably experience an elevation of mood"
StrangeDivine

NoControl
(electric tomato)
04/08/04 11:05 PM
Re: it's like talking to Robbie The Robot on crack new [re: CAwesome]  

You're missing the point. He was implying that regurgitating facts is somehow what is not needed to prove points. Well, guess what? It is!

A wrong assumption of myself on the part of you.

AdamAdministrator
(acolyte)
04/09/04 07:03 AM
Re: LOW: Most Experimental Popular Album of the 20 new [re: bowiefanpeter]  

In reply to:

I can only keep on thinking one thing during this entire thread.
Why is the LOW album never mentioned outside the Bowie legend?
People here call it the greatest album of the 20th century. Looking at it closer, outside David articles, and being namechecked a couple time by Trent, I don't think I have ever seen it once mentioned as being an independantly strong piece of music. It's not even considered amongst Eno's creme de la creme of albums he's worked on.

Maybe people still have to come around to the album, or they never think Bowie could be a serious composer.

I, personally, love this album. Just what am I missing?


Peter, I think you'll find that Low has become very respected outside of the Bowie legend. It is not yet at the status of Pet Sounds or Revolver but I believe that it is generally on the rise.

According to the latest placings on the Acclaimed Music List, Low is now placed as the 89th greatest album ever made. I have drawn reference to this list in the past and I know it is not the be all and end all but it does try to compile as many critical listings as possible. In fact, here are the accolades for Low (which incidentally fairs better than any album Zappa ever released):

* New Musical Express (UK) - Albums of the Year 27

* Sounds (UK) - Albums of the Year 15

* Dave Marsh & Kevin Stein (USA) - The 40 Best of Album Chartmakers by Year (1981) 7

* Schlager (Sweden) - The 30 Best Albums of All Time (1984) 22

* New Musical Express (UK) - All Times Top 100 Albums (1985) 15

* Sounds (UK) - The 100 Best Albums of All Time (1986) 35

* Pure Pop (Mexico) - The Best Albums of All Time (1993) 56

* New Musical Express (UK) - All Times Top 100 Albums + Top 50 by Decade (1993) 67

* Pop (Sweden) - The World's 100 Best Albums + 300 Complements (1994) 63

* BigO (Singapore) - The 100 Best Albums from 1975 to 1995 (1995) 24

* Alternative Melbourne (Australia) - The Top 100 Rock/Pop Albums (1996) 57

* Guardian (UK) - The 100 Best Albums Ever (1997) 62

* Q (UK) - The 50 Best Albums of the 70s (1998) 30

* Panorama (Norway) - The 30 Best Albums of the Year 1970-98 (1999) 3

* David Kleijwegt (Netherlands) - Top 100 Albums of All Time (1999) 23

* Spex (Germany) - The 100 Albums of the Century (1999) 29

* Showbizz (Brazil) - 100 CDs of All Time (1999) 2

* Q (UK) - The 100 Greatest British Albums Ever (2000) 14

* The Review, University of Delaware (USA) - 100 Greatest Albums of All Time (2001) 48

* Rolling Stone (USA) - The 500 Greatest Albums of All Time (2003) 249

* New Musical Express (UK) - Top 100 Albums of All Time (2003) 26

* Vox (UK) - 100 Records that Shook the World (1991) No Order

* New Musical Express (UK) - 40 Records That Captured the Moment 1952-91 (1992) No Order

* Rolling Stone (USA) - The Essential 200 Rock Records (1997) No Order

* Rock & Folk (France) - The Best Albums from 1963 to 1999 (1999) No Order

* Elvis Costello - 500 Albums You Need (2000) No Order

* Stuart Maconie's Critical List on BBC Radio 2 (UK) - One Album Added Each Week No Order

* Blender (USA) - 500 CDs You Must Own Before You Die (2003) No Order

* Mojo (UK) - The Mojo Collection, Third Edition (2003) No Order

* Robert Christgau (USA) - Consumer Guide Album Grade B+

* Rolling Stone Album Guide, Ratings 1-5 Stars (USA, 1992) 3.5 Stars

* MusicHound Rock and R&B (USA) - Album Ratings 0-5 Bones (1998-99) 4 Bones

* Paul Roland (UK) - CD Guide to Pop & Rock, Album Ratings 1-5 Stars (2001) 3 Stars

* All Music Guide (USA) - Album Ratings 1-5 Stars 5 Stars

* Martin C. Strong (UK) - The Great Rock Discography 6th Edition, Ratings 1-10 10

* Virgin Encyclopedia of Popular Music (UK) - Album Ratings 1-5 Stars (2002) 4 Stars

Incidentally, Bowie currently has no less than 5 albums in the top 200. No other artist in recorded music history has more than him and both Dylan and The Beatles are equal on 5. Of those albums: Ziggy Stardust comes in at #15 - one of the highest recent rankings I've ever seen for it - in fact if you look at all of the albums above it, they are the 'big guns' of rock n roll. Hunky Dory is at 54, Low at 89. Heroes at 185 and Station to Station at 198.


Bowie in Australia 2004 | Join the Community

pablopicasso
(electric tomato)
04/09/04 07:08 AM
Re: LOW: Most Experimental Popular Album of the 20 new [re: Adam]  

Was there ANY Zappa in that list?

Ok Zappa is very innovative, but ask someone off the street to hum one of his songs?
I bet they could sing a bowie song.
Why are we comparing the two anyway, they are totally different and have hardly crossed over into the same spheres. I think most people would know Sound and vision is a bowie song, well those into music anyway, I wonder how many would know a song off Hot rats?


I await the wrath of No_Control.

I'll wish, and the thunder clouds will vanish
Wish, and the storm will fade away


Avatar Courtesy of Nature_boy


bowiefanpeter
(acolyte)
04/09/04 07:17 AM
Re: LOW: Most Experimental Popular Album of the 20 [re: pablopicasso]  

Just curious, was Zappa ever fully signed to a record company?

I thought he just had a distribution deal where he paid for the albums and a big company got them across the country.

I find some of the other albums, listed earlier this thread, more likely contenders to the list because they had to get other people to agree to releasing them. Yes, Zappa was innovative, but to me it's just 70 albums of stuff I can't listen to. Yes, I have a small FZ collection.

BFP



JonnyManic
(stardust savant)
04/09/04 04:17 PM
stuck in a loop [re: NoControl]  

I think everyone here has seen the point I'm making, the fact that you haven't is simply an example of how mentally simple you really are.

As for this ludicrous idea:

In reply to:

All I've done in this thread is prove that Frank is the most experimental/innovative artist of the 20 century, if not ever


I'd suggest that you never look to a career in law if you think you've proved anything and that, if you considewr that Zappa is the most experimental artist ever you consider investigating real experimental music by the likes of Karlheinz Stockhausen, Iannis Xenakis, Harry Partch, John Cage, all composers and performers whose experimentation in musical styles, tonality, trexture and performance outstrip any achievement of Zappa's on the level of expanding musical theory beyond traditional forms. Whether they are more or less innovative is, as I've said, a matter of opinion. Their contribution to the body of musical theory is not.

I'd suggest that you have no idea what you're talking about other than the fact that you like Zappa and are aware of the fact that he has a reputation as a pioneer. Therefore you bluster, you provide a few arbitrary lists but have no central thesis other than trying to be an annoying cunt. Well, you've well and truly suceeded on one level!

I'd also suggest that you have no friends.

He's the son of a bad man...

NoControl
(electric tomato)
04/09/04 06:25 PM
Re: LOW: Most Experimental Popular Album of the 20 [re: pablopicasso]  

This isn't a popularity contest.

A wrong assumption of myself on the part of you.


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