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pianocraft
(cracked actor)
04/25/04 07:20 AM
Bowie, Ellen, and the Devil  

In 04/04, Bowie made the largest announcement of his career. Speaking of religion, Bowie said he had tried Buddism, Satanism, and Christianity and that none of them had worked.

This statement is important for several reasons. First of all, Bowie said this recently so it is not merely Ziggy talking, nor is it some cocaine addled jive.

Secondly, Bowie is lumping the religion of Christ, to which he is subject, along with philosophies of man. This is a statement of profound ignorance; Bowie is a heathen.

Last of all, Bowie is stating directly that he has rejected Christ. Clearly, Bowie's heart is evil.

It is significant that Bowie revealed his evil on the Ellen show. Ellen Degeneres is a famous lesbian. Homosexuality is an abomination, and is a sign of a world that has rejected God.

Bowie has chosen a platform of darkness to reveal his darkness.

It matters not that Bowie states that "Satanism did not work;" by renouncing Christ, Bowie has embraced the Devil and is aligned with him.



riley
(kook)
04/25/04 07:30 AM
Re: Bowie, Ellen, and the Devil new [re: pianocraft]  

finally.. some confirmation that bowie is not a born again christian

..3 ..2 ..1

AdamAdministrator
(acolyte)
04/25/04 07:46 AM
Station to Station Part II new [re: pianocraft]  

Excellent. Now we can get on to some seriously cool abums like this one.

My only question is whether rejecting Christianity is inherantly evil or as you say - aligned with the devil - from anything other than a Christian sense.







Bowie in Australia 2004 | Join the Community

RabbitFighter
(acolyte)
04/25/04 08:29 AM
Re: Station to Station Part II new [re: Adam]  

If you ask me, turning your back to judeo/christian God might mean a lot of things but it's hardly an act of evil.
On the other hand, embracing the thought of such God is clearly a sign of lunacy. Atleast if you believe that the god in question is a benevolant entity...

"yes, I think I will experience a light depression around 9:00 Wednesday which will worsen until 13:00, after which I will probably experience an elevation of mood"
StrangeDivine

GodlessWonder
(wild eyed peoploid)
04/25/04 08:53 AM
Re: Bowie, Ellen, and the Devil new [re: pianocraft]  

I'm interested to know exactly what Bowie wanted to gain from religion, and isn't it cheating to go from one religion to the other like a spoilt child?. Anyway, I thought all the benefits (other than free bread and wine in church) came at the end of life. Or perhaps he just got bored (likely).

At least I'm not a whore

RabbitFighter
(acolyte)
04/25/04 09:32 AM
Re: Bowie, Ellen, and the Devil new [re: GodlessWonder]  

In reply to:

I'm interested to know exactly what Bowie wanted to gain from religion


My guess is he wanted something to take away the fear of his own death. As far as I can see, that's the very reason why people seek comfort from religions.

"yes, I think I will experience a light depression around 9:00 Wednesday which will worsen until 13:00, after which I will probably experience an elevation of mood"
StrangeDivine

WoodJackson03
(wild eyed peoploid)
04/25/04 09:53 AM
Re: Bowie, Ellen, and the Devil new [re: RabbitFighter]  

Many people in society do not beleive or worship a god. Many people live a life that does not include a god of some sort. So, it is really up to the individual to say whether Bowie was wrong to say what he did about the three religions. But i can see your point. I personally think, that the fact he tried three religions, and openly admitted they were not for him is something i respect. Not many people go out to try and learn more about other religions.
I took a look at the Heathen cover. It maybe a coincidence that the way the text was placed over the image of Bowie, meant that certain letters or part of a letter was highlighted more. As in the cross, the t and h etc.
Once again, all down to Bowie's way of thinking, lying and entertaining.

You show respect, even if you disagree!

thinwhiteme
(grinning soul)
04/25/04 11:56 AM
Re: Bowie, Ellen, and the Devil new [re: pianocraft]  

pianocraft, youre a fucking idiot, you cunt



tonyinsf
(electric tomato)
04/25/04 12:08 PM
Re: Bowie, Ellen, and the Devil new [re: RabbitFighter]  

In reply to:

My guess is he wanted something to take away the fear of his own death. As far as I can see, that's the very reason why people seek comfort from religions.



I think it has more to do with the death of loved one's, rather the death of one's self. The grief of losing someone can be so great, it is soothing to believe that you can be with them again one day.



tonyinsf
(electric tomato)
04/25/04 12:15 PM
Re: Bowie, Ellen, and the Devil new [re: pianocraft]  

In reply to:

Homosexuality is an abomination, and is a sign of a world that has rejected God.



So many Christians believe this. It is my understanding that Jesus never turned anyone away. Therefore, the statement is a rejection of Christ.






RabbitFighter
(acolyte)
04/25/04 12:18 PM
Re: Bowie, Ellen, and the Devil new [re: tonyinsf]  

Surely you know that your average christian is more than willing to contradict him/herself over and over again.

"yes, I think I will experience a light depression around 9:00 Wednesday which will worsen until 13:00, after which I will probably experience an elevation of mood"
StrangeDivine

riley
(kook)
04/25/04 12:29 PM
Re: Bowie, Ellen, and the Devil new [re: tonyinsf]  

the whole of christianity is contrary to the teachings of christ.. if he ever existed he'd be absolutely disgusted with what has been 'created' [lol] in his name.

religion is fairy tales for adults who a scared of the unknown [like death].. it's also a handy tool for raping and destroying other countries and cultures.

..3 ..2 ..1

RabbitFighter
(acolyte)
04/25/04 12:37 PM
Re: Bowie, Ellen, and the Devil new [re: riley]  

"If Jesus saves, well he'd better save himself
from the gory glory seekers who use his name in death."


Ian Anderson

"yes, I think I will experience a light depression around 9:00 Wednesday which will worsen until 13:00, after which I will probably experience an elevation of mood"
StrangeDivine

riley
(kook)
04/25/04 12:50 PM
Re: Bowie, Ellen, and the Devil new [re: RabbitFighter]  

..very apt

..3 ..2 ..1

Coan_teen
(cracked actor)
04/25/04 03:22 PM
Re: Station to Station Part II new [re: RabbitFighter]  

Rabbit, I'm mildly offended.

We can't stop here. This is bat country.

RabbitFighter
(acolyte)
04/25/04 03:32 PM
Re: Station to Station Part II new [re: Coan_teen]  

I'm really sorry if I offended you. What i said wasn't meant as a personal insult towards anyone and the bit about "lunacy" was clearly too harsh from me.
Our views on life just happen to be drastically different. I can't say that I see too many good things around me and if this is all God's doing, he can shove it as far as i'm concerned.
If you got something to believe in and it "gives" something to you in return then fine, good for you and I have no intention to deny those rights from anyone.
I just can't believe in an all benevolant creator. This world's far too fucked up for that...

"yes, I think I will experience a light depression around 9:00 Wednesday which will worsen until 13:00, after which I will probably experience an elevation of mood"
StrangeDivine

strangeDivine
(stardust savant)
04/25/04 03:38 PM
The Father's kingdom is within you and without new [re: pianocraft]  

I love you pianocraft!

In reply to:

Adam: My only question is whether rejecting Christianity is inherantly evil or as you say - aligned with the devil - from anything other than a Christian sense.


I'd say that's a pretty accurate description of the mindset of the average Christian literalist. But it has no standing outside the fundamentalist Christian paradigm. If it weren't for our social conditioning, all philosophies would seem more or less on an equal playing field for posession of our hearts and minds. There's an excellent episode of the original Twilight Zone series, in which a biologic-male human in a soldier's uniform suddenly finds eirself inside a large, white cylinder, with several other people who are all strangely dressed: there is a person in a clown's suit, for instance. The soldier has no prior memories to being inside the cylinder, and upon questioning the others, ey finds out that they have no prior memories either and just "appeared" there one day. They had seemingly been there for ages and had never found a way out.

At the end of the episode, a hand reaches inside the cylinder and pulls the soldier into the wider world. As it turns out, they are all toys inside a charity bin on a street corner. That is the perfect description of life. We have no prior knowledge of anything before our manifestation in physical form, and we have no idea what, if anything, existed before our universe (white cylinder) appeared. One of the most simultaneously frightening and liberating realizations that one can have is that all of this is pure conjecture. Though, I'm a huge Jesus "fan."

In reply to:

riley: isn't it cheating to go from one religion to the other like a spoilt child?.


I woldn't say so. The search for meaning is inherently selfish, and whom does it primarily serve other than the searcher? Dogmatic systems compete memetically by trying to convince that they are the only viable system. If you decide that you want to try other things, or incorporate parts of systems to create your own, that's only as positive or negative as you decide it is.

I am curious about Bowie's use of the term Satanism, though. If I had to guess, I'd imagine that ey is referring eir interest in Crowleyism and Thelema, which are often referred to as being "Satanic" but most would probably disagree with that. I'm sure most people within the Church of Satan and Temple of Set type groups would disagree.

Then of course there's the Process Church of the Final Judgement that teaches that God, Jesus, and Satan are equal co-creaters.

But I have no idea what Bowie is talking about.

It's a campaign: it has nothing to do with art



MichelleAlder
(kook)
04/25/04 07:04 PM
Re: Bowie, Ellen, and the Devil new [re: pianocraft]  

Pianocraft why don't you look up something before you make such dumb statements? Satanism has nothing to do with the Judeo-Christian Lucifer\The Devil\Satan\whatever.

"They beat on the outside
And I'll stand by you
Now. Not tomorrow"

Max_M
(wild eyed peoploid)
04/25/04 07:22 PM
Re: Bowie, Ellen, and the Devil new [re: MichelleAlder]  

I think Jesus had homosexual tendencies. He was always surrounded by men, has a mostauche and was often seen wearing a white dress. You have to wonder.



Coan_teen
(cracked actor)
04/25/04 07:46 PM
Re: Bowie, Ellen, and the Devil new [re: Max_M]  

That would explain all the disciple-on-Jesus petting that went on in that production of JCS I saw last year...

We can't stop here. This is bat country.

dukewhite
(stealing for that one good rush)
04/25/04 10:29 PM
Re: The Father's kingdom is within you and without new [re: strangeDivine]  

In reply to:

I'd imagine that ey is referring eir interest in Crowleyism and Thelema, which are often referred to as being "Satanic" but most would probably disagree with that.



The main philosophy of Crowleyism, from what I've read from the man himself and gleaned from other sources, is "Do as Thou Will." This somewhat hedonistic mantra follows with the Church of Satan (again, I'm basing this comparison on secondhand knowledge, having no personal involvement in said organization).

Church of Satan is based on the idea, not so much of worshipping "Satan" but in doing what the believer wants to do for themself, with no regard for other people. In many ways this is the complete opposite of Christianity, which is based upon compassion and acting for others.

As you also mentioned, to a fundamentalist Christian, or even a non-fundamental literalist, living for oneself could easily be interpreted as living under the influence of Christ's primary adversary, Satan.

If I am wrong in my definition of either Thelema or the Church of Satan, I would be happy to be corrected, so that I won't go around thinking the wrong thing regarding either.

I'll be seeing YOU in New York, Detroit, Philadelphia, Boston, Kansas City, St. Louis, Wantagh, and Holmdel. So dress sharp.

riley
(kook)
04/26/04 01:01 AM
Re: The Father's kingdom is within you and without new [re: strangeDivine]  

'riley: isn't it cheating to go from one religion to the other like a spoilt child?'.

was someone else's quote.. i find most religions self indugent mass pacifiers; it's kind of like people don't want to be spiritual 'orphans' and like the idea of having some sort of parent in control of things.

..3 ..2 ..1

bippity
(mortal with potential)
04/26/04 01:51 AM
Re: Bowie, Ellen, and the Devil new [re: pianocraft]  

Sexuality in any form is quite beautiful! You should try it! I watched the show twice and I can't imagine meeting someone so popular and brilliant as David Bowie as Ellen did. Why is intelligence so under-appreciated? To trust. To care. Ultimately, to love. Those feelings should be sacred to all. Where is sanity when love is questioned as normal. I love you because. Human beings are so scared of this and that. Religion is made-made. God is on top of it all. The wisdom of a fool won't set you free.



ulfdub
(grinning soul)
04/26/04 03:34 AM
Attachment
Re: The Father's kingdom is within you and without new [re: riley]  

The words of chairman Bowie..
... I can't become comfortable with any organised religion and I've sort of touched on all of them. I'm not looking for a faith, I dont' want to believe anything. I'm looking for knowledge" [NME 25 November 1995].
In 1992 bowie married Iman Muhammid Abdulmadjid, duly "sanctified by God", and told the press: "I'm not a religious person. I'm a spiritual person. God plays a very important part in my life - I look to Him a lot and He is the cornerstone of my existence... I believe man develops a relationship with his own God." ... "Religion is for people who believe in hell; spirituality is for people who've been there."
The last religion he mentioned on ellen was "pottery"...let's see you tie satan in with that too.
the idiot


happy anniversary David and Iman


poorsoul
(acolyte)
04/26/04 06:32 AM
Imagination new [re: Adam]  

In reply to:

My only question is whether rejecting Christianity is inherantly evil or as you say - aligned with the devil - from anything other than a Christian sense.



Only to practicing Christians (and then not all of them) but since the act is denying their relevance, it's not like they're going to make much of an impact. Being condemned to a place you don't even believe in hardly constitutes a serious threat.

My Opinion On The War On Terror



poorsoul
(acolyte)
04/26/04 06:35 AM
Told new [re: thinwhiteme]  

In reply to:

pianocraft, youre a fucking idiot, you cunt



Take a look in the mirror.

My Opinion On The War On Terror



poorsoul
(acolyte)
04/26/04 06:49 AM
Iran new [re: dukewhite]  

In reply to:

The main philosophy of Crowleyism, from what I've read from the man himself and gleaned from other sources, is "Do as Thou Will". This somewhat hedonistic mantra follows with the Church of Satan (again, I'm basing this comparison on secondhand knowledge, having no personal involvement in said organisation).



Crowley was full of hot air and, despite his reputation as an over-sexed crackhead (as well as crackpot, some might argue), Thelema was actually a spiritual venture and he often made references to various deities, especially those of ancient Egypt. You also have to bear in mind that "Do as thou wilt is the whole of the law" also went hand-in-hand with "Love is the law".

LaVey, on the other hand, was a plagarist who compiled work by Neitzsche, Ayn Rand and Ragnar Redbeard, among others, tossed in a few references to rituals and Enochian magic and claimed it as a revolutionary new philosophy. I was going to explain about the distinctions between different forms of Satanism but I'd just end up referencing OCRT.

My Opinion On The War On Terror



riley
(kook)
04/26/04 08:40 AM
Re: The Father's kingdom is within you and without new [re: ulfdub]  

In reply to:

The last religion he mentioned on ellen was "pottery"...let's see you tie satan in with that too.


I don't believe in satan either.. did I mention him somewhere? Humans are capable of being both nurturing and distructive [as are other animals], difference is if I fuck up I don't palm off the responsibility to the presence of 'evil' so i can have a clearer conscience [or wallow in shame as is the christian tradition].

I am a very spiritual person as well but I find religions hinder that and oppress my own development; I do not need a mediator.

..3 ..2 ..1

strangeDivine
(stardust savant)
04/26/04 01:48 PM
Re: The Father's kingdom is within you and without new [re: dukewhite]  

In reply to:

The main philosophy of Crowleyism, from what I've read from the man himself and gleaned from other sources, is "Do as Thou Will." This somewhat hedonistic mantra follows with the Church of Satan (again, I'm basing this comparison on secondhand knowledge, having no personal involvement in said organization).

Church of Satan is based on the idea, not so much of worshipping "Satan" but in doing what the believer wants to do for themself, with no regard for other people. In many ways this is the complete opposite of Christianity, which is based upon compassion and acting for others.


I think that's true in a strictly literal, possibly short-sighted reading. I'm not saying that you're short-sighted, but I'd imagine that a lot of people who approach any philosophy with a desire to have their "I want to do anything I want I don't care who I mess up in the process" validated, will certainly get that from either of the two philosophies and will probably tire of them pretty quickly. (As with anything else).

But I don't think that's the only interpration. Living for oneself may or may not mean totally disregarding the needs of others. There's a popular adage that is often attributed to Hassan i Sabbah, but who knows who really said it originally. It goes like this: "nothing is true, everything is permitted." I think it was really made popular by William S. Burroughs through his constant references to Sabbah in his writings, but it has been adopted as a mantra for many occultists. Some people would take that as an excuse to reject all responsibility. I'd say, though, that it's a decree to accept full responsibility totally. In other words, you are ultimately responsible for your life, actions and reality.

To extend that further, I'd say that someone like Mother Teresa is a perfect example of someone putting this into practice; living life for oneself. Well she dedicated herself to serving the poor you say. Exacly. She did not live a traditional lifestyle. She could have stayed in her village and accepted a role that was dictated to her by social circumstance. Yet, she had a radically expansive view of what her life was, and decided that no matter what seeming limitations she had as just one person (what can I possibly do?), she knew that she could shape reality so as to perpetuate loving kindness. She accepted total responsibility for her own reality. There was nothing passive about it.

When people accept full responsibility, they naturally do different things with it because people are different. I've communicated with various Satanists through message boards, and I never read a single comment from any of them that suggested that they had a total disregard for others. That's not necessarily a by-product of "living for oneself." In fact, most of them seem to be over-intellectualizers and probably over-moralizers.

It's a campaign: it has nothing to do with art



diamondogz74
(stardust savant)
04/26/04 03:26 PM
Re: Station to Station Part II new [re: RabbitFighter]  

In reply to:

On the other hand, embracing the thought of such God is clearly a sign of lunacy. Atleast if you believe that the god in question is a benevolant entity...


Well said Rabbit, i try not to get involved in relgious matters, i think its quite a useless argument, for me the Church is there for marriages, funerals and christenings, we are forced by peer pressure and history to use these

I think religion is there as a hope for people in poor countries, but as for Roman Catholics and that silly old Pope, its hypocrisy gone mad IMO.


______________________
Humming Rheingold
We scavenge up our clothes

______________________
London Bye Ta-Ta...

hRtsfLtyleSn56
(grinning soul)
04/26/04 03:49 PM
Re: Bowie, Ellen, and the Devil new [re: pianocraft]  

this makes me sad...i don't care what ya'll may say...but i am one of those Jesus or nothing people. and this just tears my soul. Bowie is a good man...i just wish he wouldn't have said that. my dad is going to have a fit....<<sighs eternally>>

"you'd get less bruises if you didn't act like that" -DB



zigbot
(crash course raver)
04/26/04 04:00 PM
Re: Bowie, Ellen, and the Devil new [re: pianocraft]  

For pianocraft's sake, I hope he's taking the piss with this post.

Just because one says that one has tried a variety of "organized" faith systems without adopting one wholeheartedly, does not mean one has necessarily rejected any of the systems one did not adopt. Hardcore, literalist, Bible-thumping Christians may disagree with this, but they are a pathetic lot that does less to convey the Word of God and live the example set by Christ than just about any other group on earth.

Bowie believes in God. Period. End of story. Why would he write all the songs on Heathen if he didn't. These are songs of a "heathen" in the sense that he feels not fully able to embrace all that various faith systems seem to demand that he embrace. But these are not songs of a satanist or atheist. Agnostic, may. But atheist, no. What sense would it make for me to write an entire album of material asking the Tooth Fairy to please make herself known to me so that I could believe in her and make my life more comfortable! I don't believe she exists, so why write of longing for her revelation. Bowie writes--repeatedly, in the past and present--about wanting to find God, asking God to reveal Himself, etc. Obviously, he BELIEVES in God.

But belief in God does not equate with WORSHIP of God. One can believe God exists, but decide that God is not wholly benevolent and thus unworthy of praise.

Bowie has said he is spiritual and believes in some sort of individual God-concept. But I think he still grapples with the question of whether God is good. Hell, even devout members of any number of Christian and non-Christian faiths still grapple with that one! Bowie's religious and spiritual views are not all that convoluted or secret. He openly speaks on the topic. He believes in God, but still questions Him ("just because I believe don't mean I don't think as well, Don't have to question everything in Heaven or Hell"), and he does NOT belong to any organized religion or adopt any specific form for expressing his religious/spiritual beliefs.

I'm a Christian, but absolutely abhor 99.9999999987689% (Ali G. joke in there, for those in the know ) of the Christians I meet and a good deal of "traditional" Christian dogma. I go to a socially activist church, with an openly gay Dean--so, obviously, even those of us willing to wear a lable, like "Christian," can find a more individualized notion of God and embrace parts of the traditional teaching and chuck the balance of them.

That David wants to find his individualized God without being part of a Church or congregation is his personal right. And, in my view, if those of us who worship any God worship one worthy of our praise, then that God will accept Bowie's individualized God-concept as readily as anybody else's. Only if God is a complete totalitarian would Bowie's religious struggles be "rewarded" with an eternal trip to Hell.

Now, pianocraft, I sure hope your judgmental-sounding post was tongue in cheek.

zigbot

strangeDivine
(stardust savant)
04/26/04 04:22 PM
Refined tastes new [re: zigbot]  

Everyone who believes in God has an individualized God. The search is like gazing down a well, but no matter how far you look, the more you realize you're seeing your own reflection. That's at the heart of my spirituality, that is, a transhuman force expressing itself and observing itself through the medium of individual consciousness, but I won't get into that.

No two people have the same image of God, because no two people interpret information in exactly the same way. Passages from the Bible mean vastly different things for me than they do for most people, for instance. Dogma tries to narrow people's perception of God/reality and refine it so that it fits into a certain fixed realm of expression, and filters everything that falls outside of that range. The thing is, that it can never be totally perfected because it can always be narrowed even more...It's like the number Pi. You can always refine it more and get a closer and closer approximation of its totality. 3.141592654...................................................................................................f...u...t...i...l...e.

But it's not an exact comparision because with the refinement of Pi, you get an ever more expansive view of the number's nature. But with the refinement of belief, you get an ever more limited view of the world. And that's why you have people of the Islamic faith viewing the spiritual experiences of Jews as invalid, or Christians scoffing at the experiences of Hindus.

It's a campaign: it has nothing to do with art



GodlessWonder
(wild eyed peoploid)
04/26/04 04:29 PM
Re: Station to Station Part II new [re: diamondogz74]  

In reply to:

But belief in God does not equate with WORSHIP of God


Yeah, I agree completely. Many people consider themselves relgious (or at least a believer) but do not go to the place of worship, I also agree that Bowie does believe in a God - or at least a creator (whether or not that is God) - Heathen is about peoples lack of religion or peoples lack of faith in the world. I actually rather think the lyrics to 'A Better future' show that quite nicely.

And DDZ74 you stop being relevant at all when you write shit such as this:

In reply to:

I think religion is there as a hope for people in poor countries,


Nice one. Retard.

At least I'm not a whore

zigbot
(crash course raver)
04/26/04 08:19 PM
Re: Refined tastes new [re: strangeDivine]  

I think that you are correct, StrangeDivine, in saying that all religious belief is, at it's core, a personal belief system in a personalized, individual God, and no two people's images of this God are identical.

I also agree with you that this individuation of God can lead to negative results at times.

However, I think that, as humans, we all search for meaning and knowledge in the world. For most of us, this involves adopting some sort of cosmic belief system (note I did not say "religion"). The traditional faiths offer their view of what the supposedly "correct" cosmic belief system is. And for thousands of years, many of the "traditional" faiths have done their followers a great disservice and dished out a whole lot of b.s. in the process.

For many, especially those RAISED in religious homes, the decision as to which cosmic belief system to adopt becomes a choice between (1) tow the traditional line of _________ (fill in blank with the faith that person was raised in) or (2) create my own, personal amalgam of what God is. For many people, the third option--(3) chuck belief entirely and/or deny the existence of God--is not a viable (or comfortable) option.

So, if the choice is between (1) and (2), I say go for (2) every single time.

zigbot

pianocraft
(cracked actor)
04/26/04 08:28 PM
Re: Bowie, Ellen, and the Devil new [re: zigbot]  

In reply to:

Now, pianocraft, I sure hope your judgmental-sounding post was tongue in cheek.
zigbot


No, it wasn't.



zigbot
(crash course raver)
04/26/04 09:07 PM
Re: Bowie, Ellen, and the Devil new [re: pianocraft]  

So are you personally, a born-again Christian who believes homosexuality is an "abomination" and that Bowie has "renounced Christ" such that you fear for his soul in eternal damnation? Or are you just recounting the "conservative" or "traditional" Christian views on this. Do you really believe Bowie is shrowded in some sort of spiritually significant "darkness"? If so, why are you a fan of this Dark God?

zigbot

Starlite
(stardust savant)
04/26/04 09:20 PM
Re: Bowie, Ellen, and the Devil new [re: zigbot]  

Zigbot, go read pianocraft's post history. S(he) always makes posts of this nature, and they are always written in all seriousness.

Whether this seriousness is a deadpan or not, I leave up to you to decide.

Maybe if I write this now, while drunk, you'll all understand.

zigbot
(crash course raver)
04/26/04 09:56 PM
Re: Bowie, Ellen, and the Devil new [re: Starlite]  

Interesting observation, Starlite--I did some brousing, and you are reight.

I just have such a low tollerence for intollerance and unnecessary conservatism that is hurtful and judgemental. It's one of the few things that really gets my goat by the throat, if you know what I mean. Or, as Bowie would say, makes me "as mad as a cat's whiskers." I would like to think such narrow views are not common among more enlightened people, and, silly me, I like to believe Bowie fans as among the enlightened. Oh, well. Pianocraft is entitled to his/her views, but I, for one, just find the extremely sad if in fact they are actually held by him/her.

zigbot

poorsoul
(acolyte)
04/27/04 01:20 AM
Translucent new [re: GodlessWonder]  

In reply to:

And DDZ74 you stop being relevant at all when you write shit such as this:

"I think religion is there as a hope for people in poor countries"

Nice one. Retard.



He's right, though. "Want some food? You have to say Grace first. Want some education? Here, read this Bible." Isn't it wonderful that there are such dedicated and unselfish people looking after people in third world countries?

My Opinion On The War On Terror



Si_rocks
(kook)
04/27/04 07:11 AM
Re: Translucent new [re: poorsoul]  


GodlessWonder:

In reply to:

And DDZ74 you stop being relevant at all when you write shit such as this:

"I think religion is there as a hope for people in poor countries"

Nice one. Retard.


Poorsoul:

In reply to:

He's right, though. "Want some food? You have to say Grace first. Want some education? Here, read this Bible." Isn't it wonderful that there are such dedicated and unselfish people looking after people in third world countries?


No, he's not right, although I'm not relgious I do understand that relgion is not designed to give hope to people in poor countries - it's there to give all people hope not just poor people. Besides, to say something like that is to suggest that people in the West, or at least developed countries, don't need to believe in a God because we don't need hope. Which is wrong.

Who needs talent these days if you make out with your friend on stage? - Rabbitfighter

Dara
(acolyte)
04/27/04 08:22 AM
Pay now, die later new [re: Si_rocks]  

When the colonists went to Africa, the natives had control of the natural resources, and colonists brought the Bible. When they left, the colonists had taken much of the natural resources, and left the Bible.

Not to disparage people for whom religion is genuinely important, but throughout history it's been the most successful confidence trick known to Man. And as for that whole agreeing to pay you back after you die, well, that's just brilliant. "Give me all your worldly possessions, you won't be needing those in Heaven".

Slan libh,

Dara

There are smarter Bushes in our Garden - Fiona O'Kearney watching the Leader of the Free World on TV

Si_rocks
(kook)
04/27/04 10:14 AM
Re: Pay now, die later new [re: Dara]  

In reply to:

And as for that whole agreeing to pay you back after you die, well, that's just brilliant. "Give me all your worldly possessions, you won't be needing those in Heaven".


I realise that this is the case, to be fair, relgion is a form of business, it always has been. My point is that religion extends across the world, look at America with a huge population of Christians.

Who needs talent these days if you make out with your friend on stage? - Rabbitfighter

poorsoul
(acolyte)
04/28/04 02:18 AM
DAF new [re: Si_rocks]  

You're right. Religious exploitation is a global phenomenon.

My Opinion On The War On Terror



tonyinsf
(electric tomato)
04/28/04 02:39 AM
Re: Bowie, Ellen, and the Devil new [re: zigbot]  

For the past twenty years, I've always held the notion that Bowie is agnostic, on his own spiritual quest. I have not seen anything in all this time to dispel that notion.

JUST A REMINDER:
Oxygen channel will air the Bowie interview on Ellens show this Friday at 11pm.





ulfdub
(grinning soul)
04/28/04 05:14 AM
Re: The Father's kingdom is within you and without new [re: riley]  

in regards to "try tying that (pottery) in with satan" I was not aiming those words at you or implying that you had mentioned satan, I added that as a general comment on the distastefullness of this thread.
I do believe in god and christ and satan...
I DO NOT believe in bashing anyone for their practices, either RELIGIOUS or SEXUAL.
Each individual was given free will and must answer for how they live their life, Jesus did not commision ANYONE to hate in his name.
He asked us to live as examples, and in so doing,hopefully we would help others to do likewise, that is all.
I found it particulary troubling that this thread was started on David and Iman's wedding anniversary,(or thereabouts).
I simply wanted to share his views on spirituality.
He has the same right to his views as i do to mine (or ellen to hers).
I did not mean anyone personally any affront, and I apologize to anyone who may have taken offense to my offering.
Again please accept my heartfelt apologies as it was not aimed at you .
the idiot



riley
(kook)
04/28/04 07:55 AM
Re: The Father's kingdom is within you and without new [re: ulfdub]  

'Each individual was given free will and must answer for how they live their life'

I wasn't given free will by 'god'.. and ultimately I answer to myself.

'I found it particulary troubling that this thread was started on David and Iman's wedding anniversary,(or thereabouts).
I simply wanted to share his views on spirituality.'

His views on spirituality are irratic to say the least.. and as he brung them up I'm sure he expects [or wants] people to start speculating about them again [pianocraft always seems to do a fine job ]. I appreciate your posting some more of his views on his spirituality though I don't understand why it's toubling to talk about them around his aniversary? I thought we were talking about religions in general now.

'Again please accept my heartfelt apologies as it was not aimed at you .'

no probs.

..3 ..2 ..1

ZiggyMercury
(wild eyed peoploid)
04/28/04 10:03 PM
Re: The Father's kingdom is within you and without new [re: riley]  

I was raised Christian, and had a lot of these same problems with the religion.

I'm converting to Judaism because it doesn't have them (to my knowledge so far).

If you'd like me to elaborate, I shall.

I make no apologies for being fabulous.

zigbot
(crash course raver)
04/28/04 10:14 PM
Re: The Father's kingdom is within you and without new [re: ZiggyMercury]  

Interesting, ZiggyMercury. Why Judaism? What are you finding (or NOT finding) there that is to your liking? I know very little about Judaism, actually.

I was raised Greek Orthodox, but find the old-fashioned views and rituals of the Orthodox church somewhat oppressive, so although I've not "converted" to something else, I attend Episcoal services at a socially active parish with an openly gay Dean. So, I'm still in the Christian fold, but found a way to be a Christian without hating all the Christians around me.

My favorite quote about Christianity is from Ghandi, who said "I thought about being a Christian, until I met one." That rings very true for me.

There are times also, when I veer toward agnosticism, but still find myself believing in God even though I often question even the more liberal Christian teachings at times. I guess that's why I like that line from Quicksand so much: "Can't take my eyes of the great salvation of bullshit faith." Even if I often think aspects of Christianity are bullshit, I still find myself drawn to it from how I was raised.

zigbot

ZiggyMercury
(wild eyed peoploid)
04/28/04 11:01 PM
Re: The Father's kingdom is within you and without new [re: zigbot]  

Why Judaism?

Well, when I was in high school, I was rather torn on religion. I had been raised Christian, but I was (am) gay, and was fearful abou the implications. That's not the only impetus, but the main one. I wanted so badly to just be atheist, but I couldn't. I have a very inherant belief in God. Also, because I was the only gay student in my school, I really had to develop my own identity, my own philosophy.

So when I came to college, I met, for the first time, Jewish people. (I'm from Iowa, now go to school at Washington Univeristy in St. Louis. My class is 50% Jewish.) So I learned about Judaism, and found that it lined up frighteningly perfectly with what I had already come to believe through my own development. These include such things as the emphasis on free will and that man isn't inherently bad (no original sin), but that he has control over his actions, the fact that thinking about and interpreting scripture for yourself is encouraged, rather than regarded as heresy, and the emphasis on caring and love. Also the fact that Judaism today is based on the same things that it always was, that it has remained unchanged. There are also many examples to show the validity of the Torah. One of the biggest ones to me is that in the Torah, God says that the Jews will always be small in number, and will always be persecuted. Sound right? I'd say so. The opression of Jews is a big aspect that attracts me. When a people are treated SO shittily when they've really never done anything to anybody (unless you ask Mr. Gibson) says to me that these must be God's people. Also there is the fact that Judaism says that non-Jews can still go to heaven if they're good people, which makes waaaay more sense than the belief that somebody born who is never exposed to Christianity will go to hell for not being a Christian. Nor is hell an eternal concept in Judaism. There are also many reasons that Christianity seems invalid to me, such as the Nicean conferance and such.

I could go on, and on, and on. But I'll stop there.

I make no apologies for being fabulous.

zigbot
(crash course raver)
04/29/04 00:19 AM
Re: The Father's kingdom is within you and without new [re: ZiggyMercury]  

Thanks for the explanation, ZM, I learned a few things there. I understand your point that you just couldn't be an atheist. I'm the same way. The best I can muster is occasional agnosticism, but I still end up settling back into theism, and usually a liberal Christian view of theism. I feel fortunate to attend services at a church that chucks all the usual, conservative Christian b.s. Glad you found something that aligns with your beliefs. If I were gay, I think Christian would be among the last things I'd want to be. But like I said, the Dean of the church I go to is openly gay, so it is nice to know that some people can still be Christians yet still denounce most of the b.s. in standard, mainstream Christianity.

zigbot

dukewhite
(stealing for that one good rush)
04/29/04 01:31 AM
Re: The Father's kingdom is within you and without new [re: ZiggyMercury]  

In reply to:

ZiggyMercury



My first year of college I debated converting to Judaism, from a very liberal form of Christianity, the Disciples of Christ denomination. I found that most members of the religion, while gald I was interested in their beliefs, were not welcoming of me converting as I was not born Jewish. I got hte distinct impression, which has since been backed up in more scholarly investigation of the beliefs and traditions of Judaism, that a higher emphasis was placed on tradition and being "God's chosen people" (which I always understood to be passed on through blood, and not a choice someone makes) than in what is actually believed. It was upon coming to this conclusion that I changed my mind and decided to return to my church. If it works for you though, I wish you luck in your spiritual journey, and am to some extent, a little jealous that you are converting and I wasn't able to follow through with it.

I'll be seeing YOU in New York, Detroit, Philadelphia, Boston, Kansas City, St. Louis, Washington DC, Moline, Wantagh, and Holmdel. So dress sharp.

ZiggyMercury
(wild eyed peoploid)
04/29/04 03:20 AM
JEWS! new [re: dukewhite]  

Ay, some Jews are rather unenthusiastic about converts. That's for a few reasons. First is that Jews aren't supposed to prothlythize. Also is that one does not convert to Judaism lightly, it's an extremely long and involved process. And in today's world, there are many (like Bowie) that are given to dabbling without really considering the full implications. I've experienced some of that, but I feel that I have an obligation to myself and to God to convert. Also, I do have supportive friends, and a wonderfully supportive Conservative rabbi.

And yes, Mr. Dukewhite, I'll be seeing you in St. Louis. I adore your new pic, by the way.

I make no apologies for being fabulous.

poorsoul
(acolyte)
04/29/04 03:53 AM
Snow new [re: ZiggyMercury]  

In reply to:

When a people are treated SO shittily when they've really never done anything to anybody says to me that these must be God's people.



I'm going to assume that statement wasn't supposed to be taken seriously.

My Opinion On The War On Terror



ZiggyMercury
(wild eyed peoploid)
04/29/04 04:24 AM
Re: Snow new [re: poorsoul]  

In reply to:

I'm going to assume that statement wasn't supposed to be taken seriously.



You've assumed incorrectly.

Current affairs aside (because really, that's not what I was getting at, and I'm not in the mood for a long political discussion), what was it the Jews did to the Nazis? Or any of the ones that came before them?

I make no apologies for being fabulous.

mwfte
(wild eyed peoploid)
04/29/04 04:41 AM
Re: Snow new [re: ZiggyMercury]  

You do realize that if what you said about a race being God's people if it is mistreated is true, every race could be considered God's people, don't you?


Candice aka mwfte

"I'm sorry, I can't leave it with you. It's not that I don't trust *you*"



ZiggyMercury
(wild eyed peoploid)
04/29/04 05:11 AM
Re: Snow new [re: mwfte]  

Well done.

You oversimplified and misrepresented my argument by taking one small part of it to make it rediculous.

I know what will be thought about what I'm about to say. That I have nothing to back myself up. I promise you that's not true, but you won't believe me, so it doesn't matter.

I'm not going to respond to any more comments about what I wrote. I just wanted to share a small portion of what attracted me to Judaism. I didn't care to convince you that it was true. I will, however, read anything you have to say, because otherwise I'd just be a closed minded idiot, wouldn't I?

Let's not get angry with each other (I know you weren't getting angry, but I still wish to make the point). The important thing in this forum, the tie that binds, is that Bowie is fucking amazing, and whether Jewish, Muslim, Christian, Wiccan, Buddhist, Sikhist, or Heaven's Gate, that cannot be denied. Let's all listen to Ziggy Stardust now.

I make no apologies for being fabulous.

ZiggyMercury
(wild eyed peoploid)
04/29/04 05:13 AM
Re: Snow new [re: mwfte]  

Also, I shouldn't have said anything about the Jews being God's "chosen people". That aspect of Judaism is more complex and requires a good deal of qualification and explanation. Without that, it's a very confrontational and arrogant sounding thing (and was something that initially turned me off about the religion). For that I do apologize.

I make no apologies for being fabulous.

diamondogz74
(acolyte)
04/29/04 08:43 AM
Re: Translucent new [re: Si_rocks]  

In reply to:

No, he's not right, although I'm not relgious I do understand that relgion is not designed to give hope to people in poor countries - it's there to give all people hope not just poor people. Besides, to say something like that is to suggest that people in the West, or at least developed countries, don't need to believe in a God because we don't need hope. Which is wrong.


Well why don't you just pop another DVD into your player,enjoy your life,eat drink and be merry.

Consider yourself lucky you are not in the third world, laying in the earth.

______________________
Humming Rheingold
We scavenge up our clothes

______________________
London Bye Ta-Ta...

diamondogz74
(acolyte)
04/29/04 08:46 AM
Re: Translucent new [re: poorsoul]  

In reply to:

He's right, though. "Want some food? You have to say Grace first. Want some education? Here, read this Bible." Isn't it wonderful that there are such dedicated and unselfish people looking after people in third world countries?


Thank you poorsoul, for understanding the meaning of my post.

______________________
Humming Rheingold
We scavenge up our clothes

______________________
London Bye Ta-Ta...

zimmo
(wild eyed peoploid)
04/29/04 10:51 AM
Re: Bowie, Ellen, and the Devil new [re: pianocraft]  

so the song sunday isnt about what he himself feels
whoise trial is it then
I can not just erase/forget what this song does
how i see it it is very buddhist and christian or just humanly compassionate (which is enough and works) in its own way
the "heathen" doesnt see what he wrote himself( without ink) or he erased it but it came from his own inside
maybe he just rejects his own original self his own souls inner view, a kind of spiritual self destruction or is just confused
hope the new religion isnt making product for money money money only (the outside) what you own to identify with in
the journey trough life the things you go trough to learn from the difference between fake and original your equations and system of measurements and weights your values and priorities
you might end up seeing noone you recognise in your mirror
poor man rich man famous man unknown real man, cause nothing remains in the end only the value of love in heart and soul





GodlessWonder
(wild eyed peoploid)
04/29/04 11:23 AM
Re: Bowie, Ellen, and the Devil new [re: zimmo]  

In reply to:

Well why don't you just pop another DVD into your player,enjoy your life,eat drink and be merry.

Consider yourself lucky you are not in the third world, laying in the earth.


What has that got to do with religion in the third world? I think you have missed the point entirely. Again.


At least I'm not a whore

riley
(kook)
04/29/04 12:24 PM
Re: Snow new [re: ZiggyMercury]  

In reply to:

Also, I shouldn't have said anything about the Jews being God's "chosen people". That aspect of Judaism is more complex and requires a good deal of qualification and explanation. Without that, it's a very confrontational and arrogant sounding thing (and was something that initially turned me off about the religion). For that I do apologize.


I appreciate you sharing your beliefs as I do not know much about Judaism and would like to make an objective judgement on it; I understand why you would be reluctant to elaborate on the 'chosen people' subject but as most organised religions consider themselves the 'chosen people' [including the nazis] .. what makes Judaism different from them and less exclusive?

..3 ..2 ..1

diamondogz74
(acolyte)
04/29/04 01:04 PM
Re: Bowie, Ellen, and the Devil new [re: GodlessWonder]  

In reply to:

What has that got to do with religion in the third world? I think you have missed the point entirely. Again.


Well lets talk about missing points shall we ? incidently you posted in zimmos space, not mine, so less preaching please

You have totally missed the point, poorsoul fully understood my post, alas you did'nt again


______________________
Humming Rheingold
We scavenge up our clothes

______________________
London Bye Ta-Ta...

riley
(kook)
04/29/04 01:53 PM
Re: Bowie, Ellen, and the Devil new [re: diamondogz74]  

my guess is athiesm probably isn't a big problem in the third world.. selfless missionaries are onto a sure thing but the parishioners keep dieing of starvation.. why they hold out on the condoms.. if they're going to up and die they should at least have the decency to multiply first [despite no resauces]; the bible says so.. so it must be good thing.

..3 ..2 ..1

strangeDivine
(stardust savant)
04/29/04 02:42 PM
Questions new [re: ZiggyMercury]  

In reply to:

Heaven's Gate


I'm sure you were joking when you mentioned them, but I was actually a total believer in their philosophies circa 1999-2000. I still have a soft spot in my heart for them...

But your story sounds very similar to mine: particularly the gay bit. And many of the reasons that you mentioned as impetus for your conversion to Judiasm are the same things that sparked my interest in Gnostic Christianity. Have you studied Kabbalah at all? I'd like to know more about that. After gaining a greater knowledge of the non-cannocal, once forbidden Christian writings, I feel as though I can view everything else in a more (for me) helpful context. I don't necesarilly have to believe in the Christ of the Bible's historicity or believe in life after death at all times, to feel as though I'm progressing spiritually. Like mindfulness meditation and Tantra, it has direct application to my life now, regardless of whether some part of my consciousness will survive after supposed physical death.

The more agnostic I am in all respects, the more I feel as though I'm on the right track and the more spiritual I feel. Any time that I lean too much towards athiesm or monotheism/polytheism/henotheism, I feel unbalanced and annhiliated. I don't even necassarily believe that I exist. I fully accept the possibility that this existence that I perceive myself to be experiencing could be a total illusion. I don't simply apply agnosticism to traditional religion, it is my meta-outlook on everything.

And I hope you don't feel that we're picking apart your statements too much, but I'm just curious. What do you mean by the "choosen people"? Are you simply referring to the religion, a biological population, or both? I've heard that most people known as Jewish today are not genetically linked to the Semitic people of the Middle East, but are in fact descendants of people who lived in the Caucasus mountains region who mass converted to Judiasm a couple thousand years ago. I don't know if there's really any historical/genetic evidence for this, though. Has anyone else heard this?

And I could make the same choosen people claims about the West African traditions. Some estimate their religions to be among the oldest still practiced on Earth. And no one can deny that they have been given a pretty hard time.

FYI: The second coming has happened and Christ is living in Siberia

It's a campaign: it has nothing to do with art



riley
(kook)
04/29/04 02:51 PM
Re: Questions new [re: strangeDivine]  

i haven't looked into Gnostic Christianity yet.. is that where eve is actually given credit for eating from the tree of knowledge rather than being condemned for it?

..3 ..2 ..1

strangeDivine
(stardust savant)
04/29/04 03:37 PM
Re: Questions new [re: riley]  

This site has a lot of cool texts, if you're interested. The Hypostasis of the Archons is a rather cool Genesis-like gnostic creation story. Some of the parts are actually missing, as indicated by "[...]" occasionally, but it's amazing that these texts survived at all, as they were burried in the Egyptian desert in clay jars until the 1940s. In this story, the snake is the embodiment of the female spiritual principle, who brings divine knowledge (gnosis) to mankind, to help them ascend to the higher reality and end the rule of the lower beings who created this reality. In most of the gnostic myths, YHWH is cast as the arrogant "demiurge" who believes himself to be the only divine being, and who created man and the cosmos. Yet, he is very low on the chain.

And there is also a Gospel According to Mary Magdalene which is frustratingly incomplete.

Though I'd advise extreme non-literalism in all readings therein. I don't think the writers were fundamentalists.




It's a campaign: it has nothing to do with art



Coan_teen
(cracked actor)
04/29/04 04:40 PM
Attachment
Re: Station to Station Part II new [re: RabbitFighter]  

My earlier comment about being offended (which was meant in jest) aside, I have to comment on this:

In reply to:

On the other hand, embracing the thought of such God is clearly a sign of lunacy. Atleast if you believe that the god in question is a benevolant entity...


I'm a born-again, Bible-reading, baptised, actively praying Jesus Freak. That said, I think a lot of Christians are deluding themselves. Our God is not a benevolent deity. He's a little calmer than in the Old Testament, but he's hardly a cream puff. There was no promise of peace on Earth. Christians are supposed to SUFFER for their faith. Look at Paul, for chrissakes.

The Bible talks about punishing people. A benevolent God would just forgive everybody for everything, regardless of belief. As it is, he threatens those who don't embrace him with eternal damnation, and those who do with lifelong alienation, persecution, and a constant battle to try and obey his laws.

Maybe, just maybe you can argue that He is a just deity. I don't know. But I'll laugh in the face of any Christian who tries to tell me that God is benevolent. Benevolence connotates altruism. Altruism: Unselfish concern for the welfare of others; selflessness. (Courtesy Dictionary.com)

Someone who offers you salvation in exchange for worship is not acting selflessly.

Of course, there have been a whole mess of arguments about the altruism of the person of Jesus. I'm not going to get into it.

We can't stop here. This is bat country.

RabbitFighter
(acolyte)
04/29/04 04:54 PM
Re: Station to Station Part II new [re: Coan_teen]  

Well your views are pretty damn interesting and most surprisingly brutally honest which seems to be a rare quality for practising christian.
My question is: Why would you want to receive salvation from such harsh, not to mention cruel puppet master?

"yes, I think I will experience a light depression around 9:00 Wednesday which will worsen until 13:00, after which I will probably experience an elevation of mood"
StrangeDivine

zigbot
(crash course raver)
04/29/04 05:32 PM
Re: Station to Station Part II new [re: RabbitFighter]  

In reply to:

Why would [we] want to receive salvation from such a harsh, not to mention cruel puppet master?


Perhaps because we're human, small, and scared shitless.


zigbot

RabbitFighter
(acolyte)
04/29/04 05:44 PM
Re: Station to Station Part II new [re: zigbot]  

Each to his/her own I guess. Personally i'd rather take my chance with the guy downstairs, not that I believe in either one of them.

"yes, I think I will experience a light depression around 9:00 Wednesday which will worsen until 13:00, after which I will probably experience an elevation of mood"
StrangeDivine

ZiggyMercury
(wild eyed peoploid)
04/29/04 06:14 PM
Re: Snow new [re: riley]  

In reply to:

what makes Judaism different from them and less exclusive?



To me, the main difference is that in Judaism being God's chosen people does not mean that others are excluded from God. As I mentioned earlier, you don't have to be Jewish to go to Heaven, you just have to be a good person (I think there are seven rules, like don't kill people, don't steal, believe in God, and a few other general things). The Jewish interpretation of being the chosen people is that they were the people that God chose to gave the Torah to (although he had tried to give it to other people, who weren't able to handle it), that they are held to a higher moral standard because they were given this, and that they are to set an example for others to follow. It never means that they are better than any other people, although some Jews take it this way. But hey, there are assholes in every faith.

No, that didn't take that long, but last night I was stressed out and tired. I'm stilll stressed out. This is the last week of classes for me and I am utterly buried in work.

I make no apologies for being fabulous.

ZiggyMercury
(wild eyed peoploid)
04/29/04 06:21 PM
Re: Snow new [re: ZiggyMercury]  

Time for me to have a user pic.

I make no apologies for being fabulous.

RabbitFighter
(acolyte)
04/29/04 06:23 PM
Re: Snow new [re: ZiggyMercury]  

You should have used a picture of the other guy in your handle. Much more handsome if you ask me.

"yes, I think I will experience a light depression around 9:00 Wednesday which will worsen until 13:00, after which I will probably experience an elevation of mood"
StrangeDivine

ZiggyMercury
(wild eyed peoploid)
04/30/04 01:26 AM
Re: Snow new [re: poorsoul]  

I think that this puts it all in perspective. It's about whether Bowie or God is better.

http://www.white-man-killer.com/bowie/bowievgod.html

I make no apologies for being fabulous.

poorsoul
(acolyte)
04/30/04 02:18 AM
February new [re: ZiggyMercury]  

In reply to:

You've assumed incorrectly.



So why aren't the Kurds "chosen people", too? They've always had a raw deal and don't even have the loving relationship the West has with Israel to protect them from the evil Arabs.

In reply to:

Current affairs aside, what was it the Jews did to the Nazis? Or any of the ones that came before them?



Have you actually read any of the Old Testament? The people it describes are a xenophobic, genocidal, misogynistic lot - and I don't mean the Babylonians. And "they started it first" isn't an excuse.

My Opinion On The War On Terror



ZiggyMercury
(wild eyed peoploid)
04/30/04 02:37 AM
Re: February new [re: poorsoul]  

In reply to:

So why aren't the Kurds "chosen people", too?



In case you weren't paying attention, that was one tiny aspect of the larger argument.

As to your other comment, large sweeping statements won't do for a logical argument. You could be referencing anything, and you need to focus it.

I make no apologies for being fabulous.

poorsoul
(acolyte)
04/30/04 03:27 AM
Relate new [re: ZiggyMercury]  

Your argument was:

"When a people are treated SO shittily when they've really never done anything to anybody says to me that these must be God's people."

In reply to:

As to your other comment, large sweeping statements won't do for a logical argument. You could be referencing anything, and you need to focus it.



Examples of violence, intolerance and sexism.

My Opinion On The War On Terror



AnnLanders
(grinning soul)
04/30/04 03:28 AM
Re: Bowie, Ellen, and the Devil new [re: pianocraft]  

Dear pianocraft,

Your religious dogma will certainly bring you followers. The faithful will bring forth a bountiful harvest. The fish will multiply and the millions you spawn will fill their hole in the soul with God.

More Babies Will Bring You An Army To Kill The Unbelievers, Ann

ZiggyMercury
(wild eyed peoploid)
04/30/04 05:17 AM
Re: Relate new [re: poorsoul]  

In reply to:

Your argument was:


Ummm...did you miss all that other stuff I wrote?

Anyway, I have a busy weekend, but I'll go through those sites and make a response probably Sunday.

Edit:

Wow. You know it wouldn't be reasonable for me to respond to all of that. I just looked at the first one and there were more than 600 examples. It's not that I can't, but clearly, that's way to much trouble to go to for this argument. Perhaps you could give me like four or five of the best examples?

I make no apologies for being fabulous.

Edited by ZiggyMercury on 04/30/04 05:38 AM (server time).



Starlite
(stardust savant)
04/30/04 06:51 AM
Re: Relate new [re: ZiggyMercury]  

Actually, I think we're all just confused by the utter lack of logic in that statement.

How in the world does it prove that any race/nation is God's "chosen"/favored people if he treats them badly?

Tina's father beats her and never lets her do anything she wants, but he spoils her brother Timmy rotten, spends quality time with him, and continuously brags about him to other parents. Whenever he talks about Tina, it's usually disparaging, saying that he's sure she'll never get anywhere in life, and will probably end up pregnant and a whore.

So he must love Tina best, huh? Tina must be his favorite kid!!

That makes about as much sense as what you were saying.

Maybe if I write this now, while drunk, you'll all understand.

diamondogz74
(acolyte)
04/30/04 07:59 AM
Re: Bowie, Ellen, and the Devil new [re: riley]  

In reply to:

my guess is athiesm probably isn't a big problem in the third world.. selfless missionaries are onto a sure thing but the parishioners keep dieing of starvation.. why they hold out on the condoms.. if they're going to up and die they should at least have the decency to multiply first [despite no resauces]; the bible says so.. so it must be good thing.


And may I say an excellent reply there my friend.

If you can sort the world out? good luck.

______________________
Humming Rheingold
We scavenge up our clothes

______________________
London Bye Ta-Ta...

riley
(kook)
04/30/04 10:42 AM
Re: Snow new [re: ZiggyMercury]  

In reply to:

you don't have to be Jewish to go to Heaven, you just have to be a good person (I think there are seven rules, like don't kill people, don't steal, believe in God, and a few other general things).


so.. you don't have to be jewish in order to qualify as a good person but you need to follow seven rules that are.. jewish rules.. [i guess the difference is christians have ten?]

In reply to:

The Jewish interpretation of being the chosen people is that they were the people that God chose to gave the Torah to (although he had tried to give it to other people, who weren't able to handle it), that they are held to a higher moral standard because they were given this, and that they are to set an example for others to follow. It never means that they are better than any other people,


yes it does.. they're supposedly viewed by 'god' as being morally superior.. stands to reason some Jews would take it that way.. means they'd view other races/religions as morally inferior.. you see the contradiction here? just like the cristians and moslems who need to 'guide' the rest of us lost lambs on the right path because we're meant to be morally retarded in comparison.

..3 ..2 ..1

ZiggyMercury
(wild eyed peoploid)
04/30/04 02:37 PM
Re: Relate new [re: Starlite]  

There must be an error with the server that causes the heaps of other things I wrote to be invisible to you and poorsoul.

I make no apologies for being fabulous.

ZiggyMercury
(wild eyed peoploid)
04/30/04 02:44 PM
Re: Snow new [re: riley]  

In reply to:

so.. you don't have to be jewish in order to qualify as a good person but you need to follow seven rules that are.. jewish rules.. [i guess the difference is christians have ten?]


No....the difference is that the for Christians you haveto be Christian. And I guess if you want to call not killing people an exclusively Jewish rule, then fine. The Jews invented that killing people isn't nice.

In reply to:

stands to reason some Jews would take it that way


No, it doesn't. That's why I was hesitant to explain this. It's easily misinterpreted by Jews and non-Jews alike. It's not that they are superior, just different. Their not inherently better, but because of their religion, their called to a higher moral standard. That doesn't mean that others are incapable of this standard, it just means that it's required of Jews. So yes, some Jews would take it that way. But having people be wrong about something means just that. They're wrong.

In reply to:

just like the cristians and moslems who need to 'guide' the rest of us lost lambs on the right path


No, not like them at all. For them, the "right path" is absolutely, unquestionably their religion. For the Jews, it's just to be a good person. I personally don't see anything wrong with being a good person.

Lastly, I stated my views. I'm not trying to convince anybody of anything. Believe as you will, it won't bother me or dissuade me from what I see as my path.

I make no apologies for being fabulous.

riley
(kook)
04/30/04 03:06 PM
Re: Snow new [re: ZiggyMercury]  

I understand you are proud of your religion and can appreciate it, but you said there are seven rules and not killing is one thats featured in most religions so is pretty obvious.. you didn't elaborate much on what the others were that make 'a good person' [some ethics are cultural] but;

In reply to:

The Jews invented that killing people isn't nice.


er.. [edit] not sure if you were being sacastic as i took it in the same vein as 'jews are on a higher moral standard'- if it is serious.. holy crap thats a ridiculous and narcassistic attitude.. people with no religious upbringing would instictively know killing isn't nice.. it's not some 'trend' the jews started, if people were not born with a natural aversion to killing we would have died out as a species long ago. i know there is a minority that kill for territory and power, and even enjoyment but they're just fucked up.. 'though shalt not kill' is kind of a no brainer- and if thats the best advice 'god' [who causes wars] has to offer he should take a redundancy package.

..3 ..2 ..1

Edited by riley on 04/30/04 03:26 PM (server time).



White Prism
(electric tomato)
04/30/04 03:25 PM
White man's got a God complex new [re: riley]  

In reply to:

holy crap thats a ridiculous and narcassistic attitude.. people with no religious upbringing would instictively know killing isn't nice.. it's not some 'trend' the jews started, if people were not born with a natural aversion to killing we would have died out as a species long ago. i know there is a minority that kill for enjoyment but they're just fucked up.


The point was that Judaism’s 'seven rules' were not tailor-made to suit just themselves, but that they were in fact fairly general/universal things, e.g. not killing one another. ZiggyMercury wasn't saying that 'not killing' was an excusively Jewish thing. Of course, I don’t know what the other six are; I’m just elucidating ZM’s point.

The other point was that in Judaism, being Jewish is not a prerequisite to enter heaven, unlike Christianity where being Christian is. Conversion is not necessary. (Though admittedly maybe some strains of Christianity have relaxed this.)

So why didn't people read ZiggyMercury's original post?

Weave a circle round him thrice,
And close your eyes with holy dread


riley
(kook)
04/30/04 03:56 PM
Re: White man's got a God complex new [re: White Prism]  

I understand her point.. but the 'chosen people' thing is consistant with all [most?] old testimant religions.. therefore there are groups of people who are not chosen people.. if they get into heaven as well what do jews get out of being the chosen people? is it a 'the meek will inherit the earth' thing? do they get first dibs on the pool table when they get to heaven? i know "they were the people that God chose to gave the Torah to (although he had tried to give it to other people, who weren't able to handle it)" but what makes that so much more special than the bible or the koran? what was so intence and special about it that other people couldn't handle it? oh thats right.. they weren't jews.. means there is an element of exlusivilty to judaism.. just like the others.

oh and no i'm not being anti sematic in answer to;

'Re: White man's got a God complex' thats a very predictable biggoted assumption. .. i just have general revulsion to the old testimant.

..3 ..2 ..1

ZiggyMercury
(wild eyed peoploid)
04/30/04 04:17 PM
Re: Snow new [re: riley]  

In reply to:

not sure if you were being sacastic...holy crap thats a ridiculous and narcassistic attitude.



I was indeed being sarcastic. But I understand, sarcasm is hard to convey/recognize sometimes in non-verbal communication. Somebody (maybe you) said something about them being Jewish rules, and I was sarcastically saying that the Jews invented that killing people is wrong, when of course that's a universal moral.

Anyway, let me pull out a book and list those seven rules.

Alright, I found them, as well as some more information on being God's "chosen people" without being superior. The seven laws are:

) to establish courts of justice
2) not to commit blasphemy
3) not to commit idolatry
4) not to commit incest and adultery
5) not to commit bloodshed
6) not to commit robbery
7) not to eat flesh cut from a living animal (this means uncooked meat, not that you have to be vegetarian)

Anyway, here's a good site for some more info on Jewish attitudes toward non-Jews.

http://www.jewfaq.org/gentiles.htm

I make no apologies for being fabulous.

White Prism
(electric tomato)
04/30/04 04:27 PM
Riley's got a grammar complex new [re: riley]  

In reply to:

but the 'chosen people' thing is consistant with all [most?] old testimant religions.. therefore there are groups of people who are not chosen people.. if they get into heaven as well what do jews get out of being the chosen people? is it a 'the meek will inherit the earth' thing? do they get first dibs on the pool table when they get to heaven?


I dunno, but there does seem to be an inconsistency with being a chosen people yet not seeing themselves better than other people. What I had in mind when I wrote that last post was ZM’s comment:

It never means that they are better than any other people, although some Jews take it this way. But hey, there are assholes in every faith.

Having since read ZM’s earlier comments about Jewish persecution and the Torah, I can only assume that the reason why Jews were chosen was that they were believed to be non-aggressive, peaceful role-models to be aspired to by other races. This supposed peacefulness goes someway to answering Starlite’s point; it’s more ‘turn the other cheek’ than fighting force with force. My own preferred reading is that the genesis of the Torah is not supposed to be entrenched in factual detail of actual persecution (so don’t bring Hitler into this), but rather a moral or example to be learned. On the other hand, I despise ideas of nationhood and religion.

In reply to:

'Re: White man's got a God complex' thats a very predictable biggoted assumption. .. i just have general revulsion to the old testimant.


If I were to just sift through your abominable spelling . . . the phrase ‘white man’s got a God complex’ is actually a Last Poets’ song. Bowie likes the Last Poets.

Weave a circle round him thrice,
And close your eyes with holy dread


zigbot
(crash course raver)
04/30/04 05:16 PM
Re: Riley's got a grammar complex new [re: White Prism]  

In reply to:

Bowie likes the Last Poets


So this post is about Bowie. Whew!

zigbot

Coco82
(absolute beginner )
05/01/04 02:59 AM
Re: Bowie, Ellen, and the Devil new [re: tonyinsf]  

I'm a Christian and wasn't offended by the statement. Since it was on Ellen it was a very light interview. I don't think David Bowie is inherently evil.

Edited by Coco82 on 05/01/04 03:03 AM (server time).



ZiggyMercury
(wild eyed peoploid)
05/01/04 04:33 AM
Kittens! new [re: White Prism]  

In reply to:

Having since read ZM’s earlier comments about Jewish persecution and the Torah, I can only assume that the reason why Jews were chosen was that they were believed to be non-aggressive, peaceful role-models to be aspired to by other races.



As much as I do like that interpretation, it's not the common belief. The Jews were to be that way after they received the Torah. According to www.jewfaq.com, they received it because:

"...G-d offered the Torah to all the nations of the earth, and the Jews were the only ones who accepted it. The story goes on to say that the Jews were offered the Torah last, and accepted it only because G-d held a mountain over their heads! (In Ex. 19:17, the words generally translated as "at the foot of the mountain" literally mean "underneath the mountain"!) Another traditional story suggests that G-d chose the Jewish nation because they were the lowliest of nations, and their success would be attributed to G-d's might rather than their own ability. Clearly, these are not the ideas of a people who think they are better than other nations. "

I make no apologies for being fabulous.

riley
(kook)
05/01/04 05:46 AM
Re: Riley's got a grammar complex new [re: White Prism]  

'I dunno, but there does seem to be an inconsistency with being a chosen people yet not seeing themselves better than other people.'

yep- can't have it both ways

'I can only assume that the reason why Jews were chosen was that they were believed to be non-aggressive, peaceful role-models to be aspired to by other races.'

who aren't as moral as the chosen people [yeah i know i'm repeating myself now ]

'If I were to just sift through your abominable spelling . . .'

kiss my arse

' the phrase ‘white man’s got a God complex’ is actually a Last Poets’ song. Bowie likes the Last Poets.'

damn it- i was trying to point out cultural hypocricey and it was a good opener.. you're no fun.

..3 ..2 ..1

poorsoul
(acolyte)
05/01/04 05:55 AM
Once new [re: ZiggyMercury]  

In reply to:

Anyway, let me pull out a book and list those seven rules.



Except if you're going to accept the validity of those rules, i.e. that there is some authority behind them, you have to accept the religion behind them. What's the point if they're to get into a heaven you don't believe in?

In reply to:

2) not to commit blasphemy



Except the only way to avoid this is to accept the Jewish conception of God so, again, if you're going to go that far, why not all the way? The same thing goes for idolatory, really, as it's an accepted part of some religions.

In reply to:

4) not to commit incest and adultery



What I'd like to know if there's a religious prohibition anywhere against rape.

As for the lists I linked to, I'll pick out some highlights for you when I have a bit of time to go through them more thoroughly.

Africa Is A Nation That Suffers From Incredible Disease



riley
(kook)
05/01/04 05:57 AM
Re: Snow new [re: ZiggyMercury]  

thanks for the seven rules.. it would be interesting to see what the moslem rules are now.. hopefully i'll be able to track them down somewhere.

..3 ..2 ..1

pablopicasso
(crash course raver)
05/01/04 05:59 AM
Pointless arguments new [re: ZiggyMercury]  

If anything is going to fuel more pointless arguments than which Bowie song is the best it is religion.
Basically everybody knows that THEY are right and anyone who disagrees with them are unbelievers.

We all have our different beliefs and this discussion is never going to go anywhere.

"Cutn!!!!!!!!!!!!!!111!!!!!!!.!!!!!" PoorSoul 2004

Avatar courtesy of Nature_Boy

riley
(kook)
05/01/04 06:05 AM
Re: Once new [re: poorsoul]  

'4) not to commit incest and adultery

What I'd like to know if there's a religious prohibition anywhere against rape.'

probably not as women were seen as property and 'companions' to man therefore rape would have been considered as disrespecting another man's property and insulting his honour. i'll give credit though for forbidding incest- i guess you aren't allowed to rape your own daughter but all other women are fair game so long as they aren't married to another man.. that would be adultery.

..3 ..2 ..1

riley
(kook)
05/01/04 06:44 AM
Re: Kittens! new [re: ZiggyMercury]  

"...G-d offered the Torah to all the nations of the earth, and the Jews were the only ones who accepted it. The story goes on to say that the Jews were offered the Torah last, and accepted it only because G-d held a mountain over their heads! (In Ex. 19:17, the words generally translated as "at the foot of the mountain" literally mean "underneath the mountain"!)

underneath a mountain may just mean in a cave.

''Another traditional story suggests that G-d chose the Jewish nation because they were the lowliest of nations, and their success would be attributed to G-d's might rather than their own ability. Clearly, these are not the ideas of a people who think they are better than other nations. "'

considering 'humilty' is seen to be a quality held in the highest regard in all three religions mentioned and a sign of spiritual enlightenment and superiority.. it still comes across as a moral competion between religious groups trying to prove they're 'worthier'.

..3 ..2 ..1

streetPOET
(absolute beginner )
05/01/04 07:28 AM
Re: Bowie, Ellen, and the Devil new [re: pianocraft]  

hahaha, (falls on floor in tears) man- thanks for the laugh, pianocraft. i've never heard any as ridiculous as your vain attempt at pious condemnation. (wipes away tears) hehe, i've never been motivated to post, but i felt a need to recognize your performance as the genuine work of comedy that it is. thanks for the laughter, (claps, dropping crucifix) keep up the good work!!! :D



Tin
(cracked actor)
05/01/04 07:31 AM
Re: Once new [re: poorsoul]  

In reply to:

What I'd like to know if there's a religious prohibition anywhere against rape.


That is an excellent question, I'm betting no (quite based on present day treatment of many rape victims).

poorsoul, I've found new common ground with you. Good show.

"You've gotta laugh when you can't cry no more." - DOT 3, "Palo Alto's finest voodoo funk band"

diamondogz74
(acolyte)
05/01/04 07:40 AM
Re: Bowie, Ellen, and the Devil new [re: AnnLanders]  

I absolutely adore your avatar

BRILLIANT

______________________
Humming Rheingold
We scavenge up our clothes

______________________
London Bye Ta-Ta...

GodlessWonder
(wild eyed peoploid)
05/01/04 10:30 AM
Re: Once new [re: Tin]  

In reply to:

What I'd like to know if there's a religious prohibition anywhere against rape.


That is a damn good question, I am pretty sure I have discussed this elsewhere, and rape is mentioned in bible, but actually I think that perhaps rape could be classified as robbery or the like. Otherwise, yeah, to my knowleadge it isn't mentioned, although it may be worth bearing in mind that Romans where notorious for their rape and the writers of the Bibles latter books where watched carefully by their Roman Governers - so upsetting the Romans would be a grave, grave error. Don't quote me on that however, just guess work really.

At least I'm not a whore

ZiggyMercury
(wild eyed peoploid)
05/01/04 05:07 PM
Re: Kittens! new [re: riley]  

In reply to:

underneath a mountain may just mean in a cave.



Yeah, I think that's a little shady to. But that's not the important part of that quote. It's the first part, about the Jews being offered it last. This is very important, because it shows why the Jews don't see themselves as superior, as they weren't the only people to receive the offer.

I make no apologies for being fabulous.

ZiggyMercury
(wild eyed peoploid)
05/01/04 05:10 PM
Re: Pointless arguments new [re: pablopicasso]  

In reply to:

We all have our different beliefs and this discussion is never going to go anywhere.



Now there's wisdom. I'm pulling the plug on this. I'm probably about to offend somebody, so you may want to shield your eyes.

Arguing on the internet is like racing in the special olympics. Even if you win, you're still retarded.

I make no apologies for being fabulous.

ZiggyMercury
(wild eyed peoploid)
05/01/04 05:13 PM
Re: Once new [re: poorsoul]  

In reply to:

As for the lists I linked to, I'll pick out some highlights for you when I have a bit of time to go through them more thoroughly.



No need, pablopicasso talked me into stopping. See my previous post.

I make no apologies for being fabulous.

Dan Dare
(kook)
05/01/04 06:59 PM
Re: Pointless arguments new [re: ZiggyMercury]  

In reply to:

Arguing on the internet is like racing in the special olympics. Even if you win, you're still retarded.


That's the only worthwhile thing said in this entire thread!

Good artists borrow, great artists steal- attributed to just about everyone

strangeDivine
(stardust savant)
05/01/04 07:25 PM
Pointlessfully inclined new [re: pablopicasso]  

One can declare anything pointless and opt out. Ultimately, it just depends upon whether you're interested. Eh?

And there is such as curiosity about the feelings and opinions of others. It's not all about proselytization, you fucking nihilistic rim-jobs.

It's a campaign: it has nothing to do with art



poorsoul
(acolyte)
05/02/04 05:32 AM
Again new [re: riley]  

In reply to:

I'll give credit though for forbidding incest - I guess you aren't allowed to rape your own daughter



Except apparently the reverse is quite alright.

As for Muslims, they have the Five Pillars of Faith.

Africa Is A Nation That Suffers From Incredible Disease



poorsoul
(acolyte)
05/02/04 05:47 AM
Pisces new [re: GodlessWonder]  

In reply to:

rape is mentioned in bible



Usually in the act of being committed, though I did find this reference, which proposes some penalties but only when certain conditions are met. Presumably it's perfectly alright in other circumstances.

In reply to:

it may be worth bearing in mind that Romans where notorious for their rape and the writers of the Bible's latter books were watched carefully by their Roman Governers - so upsetting the Romans would be a grave, grave error.



Setting those sort of guidelines was more a feature of the Old Testament, though, but a certain measure of political correctness is to be assumed in the New Testament.

Africa Is A Nation That Suffers From Incredible Disease



riley
(kook)
05/02/04 11:33 AM
Re: Again new [re: poorsoul]  

19:30 And Lot went up out of Zoar, and dwelt in the mountain, and his two daughters with him; for he feared to dwell in Zoar: and he dwelt in a cave, he and his two daughters. 19:31 And the firstborn said unto the younger, Our father is old, and there is not a man in the earth to come in unto us after the manner of all the earth: 19:32 Come, let us make our father drink wine, and we will lie with him, that we may preserve seed of our father. 19:33 And they made their father drink wine that night: and the firstborn went in, and lay with her father; and he perceived not when she lay down, nor when she arose. 19:34 And it came to pass on the morrow, that the firstborn said unto the younger, Behold, I lay yesternight with my father: let us make him drink wine this night also; and go thou in, and lie with him, that we may preserve seed of our father. 19:35 And they made their father drink wine that night also: and the younger arose, and lay with him

ew.. is this like honour thy father? an ancient version of "i've come to clean d pooool".



ew.

..3 ..2 ..1

poorsoul
(acolyte)
05/03/04 05:17 AM
Liver new [re: riley]  

Yes, if the pool-cleaner happens to be your father who you deliberately intoxicated in order to bear children by him. I'm just surprised that both of them got away with it without him waking up. Maybe he wasn't really drunk at all.

Africa Is A Nation That Suffers From Incredible Disease



Dara
(acolyte)
05/04/04 08:15 AM
Re: Pointless arguments new [re: ZiggyMercury]  

In reply to:

Arguing on the internet is like racing in the special olympics. Even if you win, you're still retarded.


Not true. Most Special Olympics participants are not (mentally) retarded.

Slan libh,

Dara

I've had a great time, but this wasn't it - Groucho Marx

riley
(kook)
05/04/04 08:35 AM
Re: Pointless arguments new [re: Dara]  

yeah i ignored that at first.. amputees wouldn't like being referred to as retarded, and retarded people probably wouldn't like someone putting shit on their achievements.. so much for moral superiority.

..3 ..2 ..1

Dara
(acolyte)
05/04/04 08:38 AM
Re: Pointless arguments new [re: riley]  

In reply to:

yeah i ignored that at first.. amputees wouldn't like being referred to as retarded, and retarded people probably wouldn't like someone putting shit on their achievements.. so much for moral superiority


Plus some participants are neither physically handicapped/disadvantaged nor mentally retarded, but simply economically disadvantaged (meaning they come from a poor country, basically).

Slan libh,

Dara

I've had a great time, but this wasn't it - Groucho Marx

Odinsdracodottir
(wild eyed peoploid)
05/04/04 03:11 PM
Re: Bowie, Ellen, and the Devil new [re: thinwhiteme]  

In reply to:

pianocraft, youre a fucking idiot, you cunt


I agree with Thinwhiteme 100%. I am proud to be heathen/pagan and, everyone has a right to not be Christian if Christianity isn't right for them. Self-righteous assholes like pianocraft make me want to go postal very very literally. Who the fuck are you to tell me or Bowie or anyone else what gods to worship and what afterlife we'll have. Have you ever been dead? Have you ever been to your heaven? Or hell? Have you ever talked directly to Yahweh or Jesus or any other supernatural being? Do you have the guts to tell the gods themselves that they don't exist? No? Then, shut the fuck up.

____________________________________
My Neopets guild Ormheim

RabbitFighter
(acolyte)
05/04/04 03:18 PM
Re: Bowie, Ellen, and the Devil new [re: Odinsdracodottir]  

In reply to:

Do you have the guts to tell the gods themselves that they don't exist?


I've tried that once or twice, I didn't get an answer so I drew my own conclusions...

I'd love to be like me
If I could feel like you

Give your children a brighter future, bozo Diamondogz74 today! 27 bozos and counting!


Odinsdracodottir
(wild eyed peoploid)
05/04/04 04:14 PM
Re: Bowie, Ellen, and the Devil new [re: RabbitFighter]  

You beat me to it Rabbit. I was just about to say that nobody has a right to tell anyone else they have to believe in any supernatural being either. Thus atheists are perfectly justified in their non-belief too.

P.S. I suspect gods have better things to do than chitchat with us humans. I honestly doubt I could deal with it if they did talk to me. It would be more than a little overwhelming I think. Anyway, I'm not qualified to speak for them, so I'm not going to preach at anybody else on their behalf. The gods are just going to have to speak or not speak for themselves.

____________________________________
My Neopets guild Ormheim

Edited by Odinsdracodottir on 05/04/04 04:16 PM (server time).



pianocraft
(cracked actor)
05/04/04 04:54 PM
Re: Bowie, Ellen, and the Devil new [re: Odinsdracodottir]  

In reply to:

fucking cuntassholes pianocraftme want to go postal very very literally. fuck shut the fuck up.


Too many run their mouths about free speech but threaten to beat the shit out of those who express differing views.





strangeDivine
(stardust savant)
05/04/04 09:06 PM
The truth in black and white (among other colors) new [re: pianocraft]  

Bowie, Ellen and the Cocksucking Devil

Page 2

Page 3 (sorry)

Post strangeDivine Era. (PsDE)



RabbitFighter
(acolyte)
05/05/04 04:48 AM
Re: The truth in black and white (among other colors) new [re: strangeDivine]  

In reply to:

Well said Rabbit, i try not to get involved in relgious matters, i think its quite a titty fucking raids argument, for me the sex fighting Church is there for marriages, funerals and christenings, we are dripped by peer pressure and history to use these

I think religion is there as a hope for people in poor countries, but as for Roman "Dildo" Aardvarks and that silly old Pope, its hypocrisy gone mad IMO.


And this bastard dares to bitch about the use of "foul language"!


I'd love to be like me
If I could feel like you

Give your children a brighter future, bozo Diamondogz74 today! 27 bozos and counting!



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