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BowieTalk
   >> Views and Questions
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hangontoyourself
(electric tomato)
08/12/04 05:22 AM
Leaving Bowie new  

I've often wondered when hearing about people like Gary Glitter and Jonathon King how I'd feel if Bowie was convicted of a serious crime. As a hardcore fan it would take something fairly huge to make me leave him completely on principle. What would it take for you to abandon him?

If you think we're gonna make it...
http://groups.msn.com/keithism
DD74 is my idol

pablopicasso
(stardust savant)
08/12/04 06:25 AM
Re: Leaving Bowie new [re: hangontoyourself]  

The difference is Gary Glitter was a pretty one dimensional person without the artistic merits of Bowie, I think he would have to kill my dog or something.

I agree with the above statement.

RabbitFighter
(acolyte)
08/12/04 08:19 AM
Re: Leaving Bowie new [re: hangontoyourself]  

The guy can be tax evading dograpist for all I care, it doesn't exactly ruin his music. It might (and would) lower my respect towards him but it still wouldn't stop me from torturing myself with Tonight.

Pablo don't go there, dissing Gary Glitter is the last thing you should do. You don't want the co-founder of TW's Gary Glitter appreciation society as your enemy.

I bear more grudges
than lonely high court judges


pablopicasso
(stardust savant)
08/12/04 08:28 AM
Re: Leaving Bowie new [re: RabbitFighter]  

Come on, come on,
Come on, come on,
come on come on come on, I SAY!

I agree with the above statement.

Dara
(acolyte)
08/12/04 08:36 AM
Re: Leaving Bowie new [re: hangontoyourself]  

There's nothing Bowie could do that would make me enjoy his music any less. For me, Bowie the person is totally divorced from Bowie the artist. He doesn't have to be a nice person (though happily he seems to be): he just has to make great music.

The ancient Greeks coined the word and invented the concept of "heroes". But their concept was a bit different from ours. For them, a hero didn't have to be selfless, or even nice. He just had to do great things that others could not, because he was favoured by the Gods with a gift. So the concept of hero was an intrinsically unfair one: the hero through no merit of his own was favoured by the God's with a gift.

On the whole, I prefer this original concept of hero to our rather wishy washy modern version.

Slan libh,

Dara

"I love gossip; it's the way we gauge our moral place within society, it's integral to the way that we measure each other; it doesn't matter if it's based on fact or fiction." David Bowie

Persilot
(crash course raver)
08/12/04 09:11 AM
Re: Leaving Bowie new [re: hangontoyourself]  

What about Michael Jackson. If he ever does get found out to be a child abuser will it mean that suddenly every one of his songs is dropped from the playcharts? I doubt it.

Similarly if Bowie was found to be a murderer or an abuser or whatever I would probably still listen to his music, it would still be good music. Objectively speaking it shouldn't matter about the artists personal life.

"I'm not saying I didn't love you. Or that I'm happy that you're dead. But my doctor did advise you to keep a rifle by your bed. "

hangontoyourself
(electric tomato)
08/12/04 11:21 AM
Re: Leaving Bowie new [re: Persilot]  

I'm sure on principle that if he is convicted out of "decency" it would lessen airplay at least. I know if an artist was convicted of a serious and awful crime I would feel guilty about still supporting them.

If you think we're gonna make it...
http://groups.msn.com/keithism
DD74 is my idol

SysiyoModerator
(thunder ocean)
08/12/04 11:29 AM
Re: Leaving Bowie new [re: hangontoyourself]  

In reply to:

What would it take for you to abandon him?


Hunky Dory 2.

KArt | Project Michelangelo | LiveJournal

wannabebowie
(kook)
08/12/04 11:50 AM
Re: Leaving Bowie new [re: hangontoyourself]  

One of the many things I love about Bowie is that he never got overtly political. Of course, he's human and a few things have slipped out here and there over the years. But mainly he's stuck to the "I'm an artist" mantra and avoided preaching. Thank God, and if he changed in this it would hurt a lot.



LadyGravedigger
(kook)
08/12/04 12:16 PM
Re: Leaving Bowie new [re: Persilot]  

In reply to:

What about Michael Jackson.


That's a good example. When the child abusing thing first came to public in the nineties, I considered myself a moderate Michael Jackson -fan. Of course the child abusing accusations didn't make his music any worse, but it did have the effect that I had to start explaining everyone why I still liked his music. It made things kind of complicated. I didn't want to believe he'd done it. Actually I still don't, but just don't care so much anymore.

But if Bowie was accused and perhaps even found guilty of doing something like sexually abusing kids... I'd still like his music, but I'd really have hard time liking him as a person. Because now, although I don't of course really know him as a person, I get a feeling I might want to meet him, and that I'd enjoy it. But if he'd done something really terrible, well... I just couldn't. Now I like every aspect of Bowie. Then I'd have to separate his music and everything else, and that would probably make me less of a fan.

Hello humans can you feel me thinking

zigbot
(cracked actor)
08/12/04 12:55 PM
Re: Leaving Bowie [re: Sysiyo]  

In reply to:

Hunky Dory 2.


Some would argue, Sysio, that that's already been done, but was called "hours."

As for me, nothing Bowie could do as a man would ever lessen his appeal to me as an artist. I may not like him as a person as much if he did loutish or illegal things, but the music would always bring me bliss.

zigbot

SysiyoModerator
(thunder ocean)
08/12/04 02:29 PM
Re: Leaving Bowie new [re: zigbot]  

Hours has nothing of the whiny acoustic guitarrism that makes Hunky Dory so poor. It mightn'd be his masterpiece, but it certainly is miles better than Hunky Dory.

KArt | Project Michelangelo | LiveJournal

White Prism
(crash course raver)
08/12/04 03:00 PM
Pretty persuasion new [re: hangontoyourself]  

If (like Glitter and King) there were paedophilia charges made against him, I can quite easily imagine disowning him publically. The hassle of persauding others with the 'But he made good music!' argument and the persecution that would entail would probably not be worth it. So I guess I might occasionally spin Low on the quiet.

A far more likely scenario is that I become disinterested in Bowie's music and never play him anymore. I think about a year ago I went through a six month period where I probably played less than a dozen songs, though recently I've been listening to full albums again. Not sure whether that counts as 'abandoning' or simply putting him aside.

In reply to:

(WBB) One of the many things I love about Bowie is that he never got overtly political ... But mainly he's stuck to the "I'm an artist" mantra and avoided preaching.


I agree there are many more political musicians than Bowie, but artists are allowed to preach, aren't they?

In reply to:

(Dara) For me, Bowie the person is totally divorced from Bowie the artist. He doesn't have to be a nice person (though happily he seems to be): he just has to make great music.


I'm sure many people say that (and I'll believe you if it means I don't get labelled a 'little girl' again), though I think it's difficult to separate an artist's work from their celebrity. I know this is a fan site and is prone to attract people who are overly-enthustiastic (I'm gonna quote one in a minute), but it's hard to imagine that the person who writes the albums is an entirely separate being from the family man. Perhaps this is a little contrived, but if they were separate we would have sites devoted entirely to Bowie's music and sites dedicated to his status as a family man, possibily with some cross-over concerning dates of album releases and issues surrounding his health.

Or to put it another way, would Bowie have the same fanbase (including Dara) . . .
- if he was openly gay
- if he made (more) Nazi-sympathetic remarks
- if he murdered baby puppies or ripped the head off birds
- if he now looked like Keith Richards (arrrrrrghhhhhh! )

Actually, I promised to quote laby's_crotch_lady or whoever, and she doesn't seem to fit in now, but I'm going to quote her anyway (this was gbot's sig for a while):

I don't know about you guys, but I think David Bowie is the cutest!!!! He's so charming and just some of the stuff he says, his smile, and the expressions he makes are just so cute!!!

No never, no never no more
will I trust the elves of Dunsimore


diamondogz74
(acolyte)
08/12/04 03:21 PM
Lord what a question ? new [re: hangontoyourself]  

In reply to:

What would it take for you to abandon him?


Let me congratulate you on a wonderful thread, one of the best posers ever.

Im having great difficulty in finding an answer, I cannot be a hypocrite, like so many others, ones indeed I thought better of, as for making fun of Glitters crimes, that is indeed very silly, but we'll leave the silliness, to those who know best.

What would make me abandon him? well if for example, I found out, that none of the songs were actually written, or music scored by him, the ultimate faker, so to speak.

Other than that ? Im not saying anything

Post 6


And it really doesn't matter if im wrong
I'm right


Rheingold

London Bye Ta-Ta...

pablopicasso
(stardust savant)
08/12/04 03:38 PM
Water off a duck's back new [re: White Prism]  

As was mentioned on another thread lately Bowie seems to be blessed with having quite a few indiscretions behind him which have done little to harm his public persona.

In the early 70's he was outspokenly gay/bisexual.
Went onto being an almost certain drugs casualty.
Flirted with Nazi imagery and the occult.

Yet none of this has harmed him.

I think if there was ever something as bad as paedophilia alleged and then proven against him, I would have a very hard time justifying sticking up for him, and I think my fandom would be very much a secret pleasure. I don't think all the good music which he has given the world would suddenly turn bad, but it would be hard to get people past the stigma.

It must be awful for people who grew up listening and loving Glitter's music to come to terms with the stories which have since emerged, added by his seemingly unrepentant attitude towards it.

In reply to:

if he murdered baby puppies or ripped the head off birds


This might encourage Rabbitfighter to renew his enthusiasm though.

I agree with the above statement.

RabbitFighter
(acolyte)
08/12/04 03:55 PM
Re: Water off a duck's back new [re: pablopicasso]  

In reply to:

It must be awful for people who grew up listening and loving Glitter's music to come to terms with the stories which have since emerged


My friend's mother is supposedly still in denial.

In reply to:

ripped the head off birds


It didn't exactly hurt Ozzy Osbourne. Then again, your average Ozzy fan might be a bit more interested in eating live animals than the rest of us.
Oh and I don't get my kicks out of animal torture. On the contrary, I find it apalling but if you throw in a fetus or two...

You're gonna make me feel so cold

White Prism
(crash course raver)
08/12/04 04:10 PM
Head off a dove's body new [re: pablopicasso]  

Yes, I picked those four because they have either been connected to Bowie or other artists (Ozzy obviously being the dove-eater), though in each instance I think they reflect something about the fanbase. I consider it nearly impossible to separate the artist (uh, I sound like anotherpoet) and his work, but, in general terms, is it not fair to assume that Bowie fans are less homophobic than some other artists? Obviously being outspokenly gay in the early 70s hasn't harmed Bowie, but if you were to ask some musically ignorant people what they considered most synonymous with Bowie, 'gay' would be their answer. So, arguably unfairly, the image has taken over what was supposed to be a question about Bowie's work.

As for Nazism: if I thought Bowie was a serious bona fide Nazi sympathiser I would re-consider my position as a fan. I could live perfectly happily listening to the work of other artists without goose-stepping along to 'The Jean Genie' because I think I have a responsibility towards the messages other people might pick up from my listening to such stuff. I happen to believe Bowie's Nazi remarks were made to make people consider unusual political options and the prejudices they might hold to them, or, if not, was some kind of drug-induced lunacy which I can pass off as a mistake. Really, if you knew someone had inclinations towards fascist music (such as your friend Mr Dogz's love of Wagner ), wouldn't you think twice about the implications of that?

And there are plenty of other joint artistic-personal reasons people might abandon musicians/bands. For instance, I know some people who would happily boycott a musician on the basis of their selling their music to a commercial.

For the record, I consider my interests almost totally divorced between Bowie and his music. I know very little biography (I get by, I suppose), and next to nothing about his family and Iman's business interests (call me ignorant), nor do I drool over him on my desktop wallpaper, but I still like to know some of his ideas and politics.

I sense some people aren't budging, and will support him come what may, so it's time for another tactic:

Juno, 2001-2004: put down to feed the mouths of the evil Bowie family


No never, no never no more
will I trust the elves of Dunsimore


schizophrenic
(crash course raver)
08/12/04 05:17 PM
Re: Head off a dove's body new [re: White Prism]  

I actually saw a guy on a Gary Numan message board who actually did think Bowie was a nazi sympathizer. Just goes to show you, I guess.

Have a nice day, it's a killer, turn a cheek.

HopFrog
(mortal with potential)
08/12/04 05:23 PM
Re: Head off a dove's body new [re: schizophrenic]  

I think it's difficult to compare really. Gary Glitter was easy to hate, because he was crap.

Project cancelled
Tumbling central
Red Money

zigbot
(cracked actor)
08/12/04 07:39 PM
Re: Head off a dove's body new [re: HopFrog]  

In reply to:

Gary Glitter was easy to hate, because he was crap.


True, HopFrog. I never had to re-think my fandom of Michael Jackson or Gary Glitter as a result of paedophelia allegations, because I was never a fan of either. If the same allegations were against Bowie, then that would be a different story. Thank God Bowie's sexual experimentation has been with ADULTS, whether they be male or female.

zigbot

bowiefanpeter
(the voyeur)
08/12/04 08:15 PM
Re: Leaving Bowie new [re: hangontoyourself]  

What's the difference between what Pete Townshend/Gary Glitter/Pee Wee Herman/R.Kelly/Wacko Jacko did and Elvis Preslay haveing a 15 year-old Prescilla Bouviere(later Presley) living at Graceland unchaperoned?

BFP



jump93
(kook)
08/12/04 08:34 PM
Re: Leaving Bowie new [re: bowiefanpeter]  

15 was a reasonable age at the time, I think
Go back a few more decades to victorian times and people were married at around 14 years of age

www.mikepowell.tk

SoulLoveChild
(stardust savant)
08/12/04 08:42 PM
Re: Leaving Bowie new [re: Sysiyo]  

In reply to:

It mightn'd be his masterpiece, but it certainly is miles better than Hunky Dory.


In your VERY humble opinion of course

Sys, great to see you finally got off your arse and produced that avatar you've been promising. Your best effort yet


Get Bowie Back Downunder!
GBBD 2005 !!!!





SoulLoveChild
(stardust savant)
08/12/04 08:51 PM
Re: Leaving Bowie new [re: bowiefanpeter]  

Don't forget Bill Woods and 13 year old Mandy Smith.

god, I can't believe there's talk of paedophilia going on this early in the morning, after I watched Happiness for the first time ever last night

As for leaving Bowie, he nearly lost me for a while after the Gisborne thing, I physically could not play a Bowie album for about 4 months, it made me feel sick in the guts with anger. Not that the cancellation was his fault at all, but because he accepted a non-appearance fee and we lost thousands of dollars and he shut up and went underground on the issue. I got over it eventually, and the REALITY is now all is forgiven - nearly 5 years later!!


Get Bowie Back Downunder!
GBBD 2005 !!!!





bowiefanpeter
(the voyeur)
08/12/04 10:05 PM
Re: Leaving Bowie new [re: SoulLoveChild]  

How old was Celine Dion when she got serious with her manager?

Bowie has mildly annoyed fans a number of times over the past 35 years. If you still count yourself as a fan, I doubt you could be offended by anything froim this point on.

BFP



bowiefanpeter
(the voyeur)
08/12/04 10:10 PM
Re: Leaving Bowie new [re: jump93]  

The UK press crucified Jerry Lee Lewis for marrying a 15 year old girl in the late 50's. It was later out that she was actually 13, and his cousin.

But the question remains, the 50's press went after JLL and left EP alone on matters that were close to identical.

The only justification for this slim margin of difference is JLL shacked up with his white-trash cousin for his 3rd marriage and Elvis dated a daughter of an military aristocrat.

BFP





SoulLoveChild
(stardust savant)
08/12/04 10:22 PM
Re: Leaving Bowie new [re: bowiefanpeter]  

Your post above reminds me of a quote from the movie Dogs in Space, where the bogan girl is drunk at a punk pub screaming out to anyone who'll listen:

"I'll tell ya why they fuck 15 year old girls - cos they're scared anyone older will tell them what a lousy root they are".
Could be very true

In reply to:

Bowie has mildly annoyed fans a number of times over the past 35 years. If you still count yourself as a fan, I doubt you could be offended by anything froim this point on.


Agreed


Get Bowie Back Downunder!
GBBD 2005 !!!!





Tin
(cracked actor)
08/13/04 02:51 AM
Re: Leaving Bowie new [re: hangontoyourself]  

Thankfully, I know (99.9% sure) that this will never happen. However, if he ever harmed his daughter or Iman in any way, sexual or otherwise, that would end it. Murder is number two, and that comes with the usual legal disclaimers... circumstances surrounding and honesty about why.

Charles Manson was never a musician, but attempted music fame with his sicko LP release in the '80s. Lots of djs played that dreck, but I refused. Bad example, but hope it makes the point.

Thankfully, this Bowie nightmare will surely not come to fruition.

Dara, great refresher on the origins of hero. Thanks.

"You've gotta laugh when you can't cry no more." - DOT 3, "Palo Alto's finest voodoo funk band"

krettis
(crash course raver)
08/13/04 04:09 AM
strangers when we meet new [re: White Prism]  

In reply to:

- if he made (more) Nazi-sympathetic remarks


More? explain that one please...

Well I would abandon him if he would step into politics.
And when he would shock people only for the shock..

Your dream is such a scary place to be trapped inside - Anathema
DD74 is my idol

Dara
(acolyte)
08/13/04 06:05 AM
Supporter or fan? new [re: White Prism]  

In reply to:

I think it's difficult to separate an artist's work from their celebrity


I think it goes to the nature of your fandom, personally. People are fans for different reasons - because they feel they identify with the artist, because he's attractive to them physically, because they like his persona. If you fall into one of those categories and something happens to make you doubt the basis of your fandom, then yes, I could see why you wouldn't be a fan any more.

But I don't particularly identify with Bowie. That was never the basis of my fandom. I don't "support" him like I support my favourite sports team. If it was announced that Arsenal was openly fascist (as, for example, SS Lazio are), then I'd quickly drop them. Because in supporting a sports team, identification is important.

But I look for different things in an artist. First, his art has to be good. If Bowie made the same music but was dull as ditchwater as a person, I wouldn't come here to discuss him, but I wouldn't like his music any less. To sum up: to keep me buying and listening to his music, he just has to keep making good music. To keep my interest in discussing him with other people, he just has to remain interesting. If he was exposed as a pedophile fascist, that would be very interesting, and I'd sure as Hell want to discuss it. I wouldn't feel any need to deny my liking for his music, or disown him publicly. I have no problem with the concept that my favourite artists might be assholes. James Joyce was, and it doesn't make Ulysses any worse (in fact, if he weren't such a fucked up asshole I doubt the book would be so good).

The thing is, I have no problem with people saying bad things about my favourites. So long as they're true. It's untruth I object to, not negativity. If it were proven conclusively that Bowie was a pedophile fascist, and I came across someone who denied that, I wouldn't hold back arguing the case for the prosecution.

Slan libh,

Dara

"I love gossip; it's the way we gauge our moral place within society, it's integral to the way that we measure each other; it doesn't matter if it's based on fact or fiction." David Bowie

BigFatDog
(wild eyed peoploid)
08/13/04 07:49 AM
Re: Supporter or fan? new [re: Dara]  

In reply to:

If it were proven conclusively that Bowie was a pedophile fascist, and I came across someone who denied that, I wouldn't hold back arguing the case for the prosecution.


Without sounding like an arse-lick, fantastic post yet again.

Personally, I feel I have to be able to identify with Bowie, otherwise his, what would seem weird lyrics, would have no impact on me. I love to get pensive and really feel everything from his songs.

In reply to:

To sum up: to keep me buying and listening to his music, he just has to keep making good music


You've never bought a re-edition of anything?

I find that most Bowie fans are more than you're average music fan, for example, Low being fan's favourites not only for the quality of songs, but for the reprise of Bowie as a person at the time, and what the album represents.



Dara
(acolyte)
08/13/04 08:14 AM
Re: Supporter or fan? new [re: BigFatDog]  

In reply to:

You've never bought a re-edition of anything?


I'm not a completist. I judge each rerelease on its merits: if it has a bonus track I want, or improved sound, I'll consider buying it. And grumbling about it, of course.

Slan leat,

Dara

"I love gossip; it's the way we gauge our moral place within society, it's integral to the way that we measure each other; it doesn't matter if it's based on fact or fiction." David Bowie

carsten
(kook)
08/13/04 09:41 AM
Re: Leaving Bowie new [re: hangontoyourself]  

I'd guess I would have a severe problem if Bowie was found to be a child molester. I quite have a problem with the author of one of my favorite books - namely "Alice In Wonderland" - since I learned that he had a huge collection of nude pictures of underage girls.

Not sure if I would keep my record collection.

On the other side, I have no problem to admire Ezra Pound as one of great poets of the twentieth century despite his fascist phase (and see myself in good company with John Cale here 8^).

For public opinion, I guess it also has a lot to do with the nature of the offence - I guess child molesting will be bad for your reputation. The examples of people surviving affairs with seemingly consenting 15-years-old do not contradict to this -
the crime is to do something against someone's will, to do iit by force, and the younger the victim the more people will find it apalling.

The other thing is that it will also depend quite on the image a star projects of himself - for a person like Bowie drugs are quite what you expect him to do, while it might have killed the career of John Denver (instead an aeroplane did it for us).

/Carsten





SoulLoveChild
(stardust savant)
08/13/04 10:15 AM
Re: Leaving Bowie new [re: Tin]  

In reply to:

However, if he ever harmed his daughter or Iman in any way, sexual or otherwise, that would end it


I was just flicking through the "Hello" cover feature when Lexie was born. We all know deep down he would never do anything like this to his two girls - those pics are so amazing, he is so in love with them both. It put the biggest smile on my face to see him so goddamn happy, it's quite infectious!


Get Bowie Back Downunder!
GBBD 2005 !!!!





Persilot
(crash course raver)
08/13/04 11:28 AM
Re: Leaving Bowie new [re: jump93]  

In reply to:

Go back a few more decades to victorian times and people were married at around 14 years of age


Go back to medieval times and there are cases of twelve year old girls being betrothed, usually for political reasons of course, but still... twelve? The concept of childhood as we know it is actually a legacy of the Victorians. The idea that there should be a time of innocence and freedom of creativity etc.

"I'm not saying I didn't love you. Or that I'm happy that you're dead. But my doctor did advise you to keep a rifle by your bed. "

White Prism
(crash course raver)
08/13/04 01:36 PM
A loveable asshole? new [re: Dara]  

In reply to:

(Krettis) More? explain that one please...


I did, in my second post. Unless you mean you want to see the original Nazi quotes, in which case search for ‘Adolf’ in the quotes forum.

In reply to:

(Dara) I think it goes to the nature of your fandom, personally. People are fans for different reasons - because they feel they identify with the artist, because he's attractive to them physically, because they like his persona. If you fall into one of those categories and something happens to make you doubt the basis of your fandom, then yes, I could see why you wouldn't be a fan any more.


I suppose I fit into the ‘identification’ category. I’m not attracted physically to Bowie (though I consider Ziggy’s use of make-up and the Duke’s appearance interesting to discuss) nor his persona (like Zigbot’s Manic Laughter thread) but, like I said, I’m curious about his ideas on art and politics and suchlike. Namely, I’ve bought quite a few albums from other artists he’s suggested (which were kinda helpful to see where’s coming from musically) and I guess from the few political snippets I’ve heard he’s fairly left-wing. Not that these things are essential in judging the quality of his music (there are quite a number of god-fearing musicians I like yet don’t identify with, and also a larger number I know no biography about whatsoever) but maybe it makes me judge him more leniently.

I suppose I see artists as having role outside of just their work. Potentially there’s a sphere of social/political commentary they can provide outside of their music and use to infuse and educate others with ideas. I’m not sure what this makes them . . . leaders? Role models?

In reply to:

But I don't particularly identify with Bowie. That was never the basis of my fandom. I don't "support" him like I support my favourite sports team. If it was announced that Arsenal was openly fascist (as, for example, SS Lazio are), then I'd quickly drop them. Because in supporting a sports team, identification is important.


Okay, but presumably you’d still have to admit liking Arsenal’s (or SS Lozio’s) style of football regardless to the ideas propagated beyond the pitch. There isn’t anything intrinsically fascist about the way they play (unless, say, SS Lazio adopt the much-underrated ‘swastika formation’ to intimidate their opponents?)

In reply to:

James Joyce . . . fucked up asshole


He was? To some extent he was pompous and vengeful and, at various times of his life, broke, drunken and refused to speak to his wife for several days at a time, but nothing as serious as the charges levelled at Glitter et al. If anything, my identity with Joyce would be through his views on art, nationalism, religion, abortion, etc., not on how long it took him to repay his loan to so-and-so. And he refused to pray at this mother’s request at her deathbed . . . Wow! Isn’t that great?!

By way of contrast, I find the religious elements of T.S. Eliot somewhat alienating. Sure, I can appreciate he used language in a highly dextrous way, that he was pioneering, and I certainly like to talk about him – I consider him ‘interesting’, to use a word you used frequently in your last post (I hope I’ve used it in a similarly lukewarm manner in this post) – but I’d stop short of saying I was a supporter or even a fan. Why? Quite possibly because I don’t identify and I find his particular brand of religion irksome. Though, as I mentioned earlier, I don’t draw the line at religion and my interpretation on how it operates in an individual is somewhat arbitrary. With that in mind, I guess my high opinion of Al Green is always subject to change; maybe my high opinion is based on the fact I know zilch about him and, when I do, one day I’ll never be able to listen to ‘Belle’ without it conjuring up all the annoying aspects of religious preaching.

Just to reiterate an earlier point: I’m pretty much convinced you have separated Bowie the artist and Bowie the person (I said I believed you in my opening post, right? ), but also that for many people (myself included) this is easier said than done.

No never, no never no more
will I trust the elves of Dunsimore


hangontoyourself
(electric tomato)
08/13/04 01:49 PM
Re: Leaving Bowie new [re: Persilot]  

In reply to:

Elvis Preslay haveing a 15 year-old Prescilla Bouviere(later Presley) living at Graceland unchaperoned?


You learn something new every day...

In reply to:

Don't forget Bill Woods and 13 year old Mandy Smith.


Bill Wyman (it's Ronnie Wood)...In both of these cases no charges of molestation were pressed/proven and as both married the respective women later it is a bit different than Glitter's crimes...not that I'm advocating underage sex OBVIOUSLY but as there was no charge I think their examples are slightly tenuous.

If you think we're gonna make it...
http://groups.msn.com/keithism
DD74 is my idol

CharlieManson
(grinning soul)
08/13/04 02:44 PM
Re: Leaving Bowie new [re: hangontoyourself]  

Bowie could start murdering pregnant women and I'd still love Ching a ling.


______________
Helter Skelter
______________
DD74 is my father


bowiefanpeter
(the voyeur)
08/13/04 04:32 PM
Re: Leaving Bowie new [re: CharlieManson]  

What if Bowie got a brazilain model pregnant anf got divorced from Iman? it is possible.....

Then would anybody here dislike DB?

BFP



Tin
(cracked actor)
08/13/04 04:44 PM
Re: Leaving Bowie new [re: SoulLoveChild]  

That's why I came up with such an improbable scenario. Stuff of a very bad b-movie or book. It's beyond apparent that he's in love and in it for the duration.

Actually, I can't imagine throwing out any Bowie from present on back, even if he did suddenly go insane and tour with Spammy Hagger Halen or some other god-awful sell-out tactic. I'd just stop following his current works.

Off topic, SLC... I just had a small epiphany on Underworld and why I lurve them so much... formed out of the rubble that was Freüer, who I greatly enjoyed back in the '80s. I'm slow on the uptake.

It is my opinion and I am unanimous in this, because it is my opinion, which is, in fact, mine.

schizophrenic
(crash course raver)
08/13/04 08:13 PM
Re: Leaving Bowie new [re: hangontoyourself]  

I'd abandon him if he blew up my house.

Have a nice day, it's a killer, turn a cheek.

poorsoul
(acolyte)
08/14/04 01:21 AM
Zynaps new [re: Persilot]  

In reply to:

Go back to medieval times and there are cases of twelve year old girls being betrothed, usually for political reasons of course, but still... twelve?



I wonder where that stood in relation with the average age of the onset of puberty. For example, in Victorian times, girls had their menarche at about 17 or 18 - around the same time at which they would've been married off. Given the fact that life expectancy was somewhere between 30 and 40 years, I wonder if the need to marry and produce offspring even before reaching full adulthood (whatever that might be) sped things along.

Everybody Disco Dancing



poorsoul
(acolyte)
08/14/04 01:26 AM
Lowing new [re: CharlieManson]  

In reply to:

Bowie could start murdering pregnant women and I'd still love Ching-A-Ling.



Which just goes to show what a sick bastard you really are. I've got no problem with the pregnant woman murdering, though.

Everybody Disco Dancing



diamondogz74
(acolyte)
08/15/04 07:45 AM
Blew, blew, lectric blew. new [re: schizophrenic]  

In reply to:

I'd abandon him if he blew up my house.


Thats presuming you are not in the house.

But what if he blew up your nose ?

As I've said before, If he were too hurt my close family, or doggy, which is highly unlikely, then I would dump him.

The only other time ? was if, he was a real faker, and didn't write any of the songs.

Post 1

If I could be for just one little hour
Cute in a stupid ass way


Rheingold

London Bye Ta-Ta...

Pythonis
(electric tomato)
08/17/04 01:22 AM
12 years old, mate new [re: Persilot]  

I could have been legitimately married off at 12, and reproduced then, too. Of course, the average age of menarche is getting earlier and earlier due to nutrition and such, so who knows how likely it was that mideval preteens were phisically adult?




And I suppose I would abandon Bowie if he announced that all his previous work was crap, he was wrong all these years about everything, and he was going to become a devout Catholic and give all his money to the Bush campaign.


Or if he blew up my nose, I suppose. Though I might forgive him if he had a good reason for doing so.

1.outside is a dissasosciative identity hypercrime

Dara
(acolyte)
08/17/04 09:02 AM
Re: A loveable asshole? new [re: White Prism]  

In reply to:

Okay, but presumably you’d still have to admit liking Arsenal’s (or SS Lozio’s) style of football regardless to the ideas propagated beyond the pitch.


Of course. The whole essence of supporting a football team long term is pretty irrational. Chances are whatever was the basis for your original fandom - a style of play, a particular player, even the shirt - will change before long and you find yourself supporting something completely different. I started supporting Arsenal because at the time they had more Irish players than any other club in the English top flight. Now they have less. But I'm still a fan. So long as they don't mutate into something I absolutely could not accept (like Millwall, the official club of the National Front), I will remain a fan, because the emotional investment I've made can't just be discarded easily. The nature of that particular fandom is entirely irrational and emotional. It's almost like an unconditional love affair: it will survive almost any change in the object of it, and if the object changes to something which cannot be accepted, it will be killed (like in all the best French love films).

I think we all have a need for different kinds of relationships in our lives. Among people, the relationship you have with a spouse, a child, a friend, a parent and a sibling are all quite different. Similarly, there are different types of abstract relationships.

One thing that occurs to me is the apparent overlap between those for whom identification with Bowie is central to their fandom, and those who have no great interest in watching or supporting sport. It may be that those of us who do enjoy vicarious sport are satisfying that need to identify with an abstraction, so we don't look for it in other places.

In reply to:

He was? To some extent he was pompous and vengeful and, at various times of his life, broke, drunken and refused to speak to his wife for several days at a time, but nothing as serious as the charges levelled at Glitter et al.


I said he was an asshole, not that he liked raping children. Gradations, people.

He was, on the whole, a lousy human being. Poor father, terrible son, mediocre spouse, appalling friend and shamelessly awful sibling. He sponged off his friends, and was a narcissist who could only tolerate them for as long as he believed they admired him above all others. His views on nationalism and religion were entirely self-serving: his main interest was in pumping up his own legend.

If I wanted to admire an Irish artist for his intellectual honesty and personal integrity, I'd choose Beckett over Joyce any day.

Slan libh,

Dara

"I love gossip; it's the way we gauge our moral place within society, it's integral to the way that we measure each other; it doesn't matter if it's based on fact or fiction." David Bowie

Starlite
(stardust savant)
08/17/04 07:06 PM
Pall mall new [re: poorsoul]  

In reply to:

example, in Victorian times, girls had their menarche at about 17 or 18 - around the same time at which they would've been married off.


Er... statistics for this, please?

In Victorian times, the age of consent for girls was 13 years old. I severely doubt they'd make it that low if the average "age of menarche" was 17.

In late Victorian times, or to be more precise, precisely 1871, there was a big brouhaha when a gent named William Stead penned an expose called "The Maiden Tribute of Modern Babylon," detailing the horrors of child and virgin prostitution. This eventually lead to the raising of the age of consent to 16.

So you see, girls were married after the age of consent, not the age of menarche.

Maybe if I write this now, while drunk, you'll all understand.

JonnyManic
(stardust savant)
08/17/04 10:48 PM
would you respect me if you knew I shagged sheep? new [re: White Prism]  

In reply to:

I suppose I see artists as having role outside of just their work.


This notion is something that's grown with the cult of celebrity, something I find a little worrying. I mean, Wagner's music or Reifenstahl's films shouldn't be linked to their fascism because they have their own intrinsic merit. Robert Blake killed his wife but I'm not going to stop loving his performance in Lost Highway because it's brilliant! Understanding the artist should help us understand their art, but to allow their actions to influence your opinion on aesthetics just isn't sensible.

Gary Glitter may be a shit but Rock and Roll part 2 rocks and rolls, y'all!

Jay, you are a capital ess, another ess I see...

poorsoul
(acolyte)
08/18/04 05:17 AM
Admission new [re: Starlite]  

In reply to:

Er... statistics for this, please?



Who do you think I am - NoControl? All I need to sustain an argument are hyperbole and half-baked facts - and sometimes not even them.

In reply to:

In Victorian times, the age of consent for girls was 13 years old. I severely doubt they'd make it that low if the average "age of menarche" was 17.



Pćdophiles have sexual relationships with six-year-olds but does that mean they're ready for it? In fact, early sexual activity can accelerate the onset of puberty. At any rate, just because people could marry 13-year-olds doesn't mean that the majority necessarily did.

Everybody Disco Dancing



NomDePlume
(grinning soul)
08/18/04 06:22 AM
Arrogance new [re: poorsoul]  

I applaud your arrogance.

Arrogance is a gift from me.

It is only natural that you fear the beautiful NomDePlume. Men, women & children cower before me wherever I go.

To hear your talk of statistics brings to mind a famous incident from my time at school in Arkansas. I was the most popular boy in the school. I regularly missed lessons to service the women folk of the surrounding area. On arriving late for a maths lesson I was greeted with a hail of statistics from my maths teacher concerning the amount of days I had missed that year.

I said nothing.

My classmates simply informed the teacher that NomDePlume would not be responding to his remarks. I then "satisfied myself" all over his desk and I think, at that moment, he understood the importance of NomDePlume over mere statistics.

Thank you for your interest in NomDePlume.





diamondogz74
(acolyte)
08/18/04 06:36 AM
Wagner. new [re: JonnyManic]  

In reply to:

worrying. I mean, Wagner's music or Reifenstahl's films shouldn't be linked to their fascism because they have their own intrinsic merit


Well said Mr Manic, but your words although true, do not hold water from you, you have called me a fascist many times, because of my Love of Wagners music.

Make your mind up

You cannot have it both ways.

Post 1

Remember me
I've already forgotten you.


Rheingold

London Bye Ta-Ta...

RabbitFighter
(acolyte)
08/18/04 06:50 AM
Re: Wagner. new [re: diamondogz74]  

Yuo see Dogz, the fact that you love Wagner is just a plus. We drew the conclusions about your political beliefs and dodgt state of mind when you cherished this board with your rants about British superiority and eugenics.
By the way, i'm starting to see why you prefer to spend holidays outside Europe. I bet it reminds you of the good ol' days of colonialism when lesser races bowed down before the might of British empire.
Who know's, maybe you could find your very own manservant so you could explore your repressed homosexuality togther.

Note to self: The last sentence was a low blow even by my standards. Do not mock others' sexual orientations, even though it's so damn easy...

You're gonna make me feel so cold

diamondogz74
(acolyte)
08/18/04 07:52 AM
Standards. new [re: RabbitFighter]  

In reply to:

even by my standards.


Firstly you could have PM me on this matter, but you prefer to show off, as per usual

You have Standards!, that does amaze me, as far as I can see, all your standards are rock bottom.

Thank the Lord my standards actually mean something, and I stand by them thru thick and thin , I do not like you, swim with the tide.

Your conclusions on me, really are very funny

As I've said, I would only leave Bowie if ? I found out he was a faker, as for any crimes he may commit ? that bothers me not, the music is the music, whatever may become of him in the future.

Post 3

Remember me
I've already forgotten you.


Rheingold

London Bye Ta-Ta...

RabbitFighter
(acolyte)
08/18/04 09:01 AM
Re: Standards. new [re: diamondogz74]  

Make up your mind already? First you accuse me of hating Earthling just because I wanted to stir up things and disagree with others and now i'm going with the tide.
Besides, even if I was doing that I can honestly say that I am the tide! I realized what a pitiful excuse for a human being you are much earlier than most of the good folks here. You see, all these people hate you just because Strawie, White Prism and myself tell them to do so.

As for my standards: Yes, I've got a few and more than handful of people here know that i'm really quite a sweet and nice fellow under right circumstances, atleast when i'm sober (it's a miracele that Sugarplumfairy hasn't started to avoid me even though i've passed out on her apartment floor twice).
I'm rambling as usual but the point is, we are a bunch of pretty nice people but prizetwats such as yourself bring out the bad sides lurking in us.

Oh thanks for wasting one of your precious posts on replying here. My job here is done!

You're gonna make me feel so cold

JonnyManic
(stardust savant)
08/18/04 12:03 PM
dolty new [re: RabbitFighter]  

In reply to:

We drew the conclusions about your political beliefs and dodgt state of mind when you cherished this board with your rants about British superiority and eugenics.


That and his rampant racism and islamophobia. I mean, the cunt said this:

"...im i,ve of the mind of simply wiping the entire middle east out,its a shithole on the world and has always been trouble,religion has long since been dismissed as the reasons for their EVIL ways,i say nuke the LOT of them and begone trash of society,i would have no second thoughts at all about wiping them off the face of the earth,wrong is wrong and evil is evil...". Ahem, (sic)!

Bejesus!

Jay, you are a capital ess, another ess I see...

White Prism
(crash course raver)
08/18/04 01:17 PM
Lemme guess, you fucked my mom too new [re: JonnyManic]  

Now for some much needed clarification and convenient compartmentalising of arguments:

In reply to:

Lost Highway/ Rock and Roll part 2


I’m okay with these examples despite the failings of the people behind them. Though I’m not overly familiar with either Blake or Glitter, I’ll assume that their later crimes do not inform an interpretation of their performances. The only difficulty I would have here is openly being a fan – not necessarily because I cannot draw the line between person/artwork, but because other people do have difficulty and the persecution that would entail means I probably wouldn’t have many opportunities to discuss them properly.

However, I apply a different rule when the, say, fascist views of an artist relates directly to the subject matter of their work. For example, if a work is autobiographical, or if it contains material obviously belonging to the views of the author that he/she is intending to disseminate, I believe it becomes very difficult to separate the person from the work, and that in such instances it would definitely be worthwhile looking at some background information of the person to disentangle the messages in the work. If such background can elucidate how to read a passage, then exactly how I evaluate the background determines whether I find the passage agreeable or not. I think all the examples of authorial biography I’ve provided (with the exception of Wagner who I know nothing about and was more of a Dogz dig) have been linked directly to aid a reading of their work. And that’s why I’ve picked the useful religious snippets from Joyce’s bio and dumped the irrelevant parasitic elements of his personality.

In reply to:

Manic quoting me on ‘artists having a role outside work’, or whatever I said


When I said ‘outside’, I didn’t mean on a completely different plane, just simply not a straightforward restating of whatever they make art about. Many artists, in interviews, refuse flatly to engage in analysis of their own work, though it’s still possible to work out some things by who they reference and where they’re coming from. And assuming most people have access to above a single viewpoint of a single artist, it’s just another method of getting loads of ideas flying around.

Also, I do find it amusing that our resident Welsh outspoken leftie’s favourite band (the Manic Street, uh, Preachers) have used many interviews for such means, making them one of the most outspoken leftie bands. Are we to believe this connection is coincidental?

In reply to:

Dara, sports and abstract emotion


Now I said I liked some sports, but still not a bad theory.
No never, no never no more
will I trust the elves of Dunsimore


Claude
(big brother)
08/18/04 03:37 PM
Re: Leaving Bowie new [re: hangontoyourself]  

I was leaving BOWIE during Let's Dance era.


___________________
Claude




Starlite
(stardust savant)
08/18/04 05:32 PM
Re: Admission new [re: poorsoul]  

Okay, I know you said you based your argument on hyperbole and half-baked facts, but I looked it up, and turns out the average age of menarche in the Victorian era was 15. That seems about right.

According to one source, it was 17 in 1780. That I do find surprising, since I'd thought people married pretty early then. But I guess in those times, a girl's first period really did count as the onset of her womanhood, and she'd get married almost straightaway after that.

In reply to:

At any rate, just because people could marry 13-year-olds doesn't mean that the majority necessarily did.


I'm not sure it was allowed to marry 13 year olds, actually. Just that you wouldn't be prosecuted if you had sex with one.

Maybe if I write this now, while drunk, you'll all understand.

SysiyoModerator
(thunder ocean)
08/19/04 04:48 AM
Re: Admission new [re: Starlite]  

What is often neglected in history books is that the average age of marriage differed hugely between the lower and upper classes from the late middle ages onwards. The nobility would generally marry at an earlier age than the commoners did. I'd dig the facts and figures up for you, but it's a quite big job since I'm not sure which book they were from.

KArt | Project Michelangelo | LiveJournal

Starlite
(stardust savant)
08/19/04 11:22 AM
Re: Admission new [re: Sysiyo]  

True, though as a girl's "purity" became more and more prized as a character trait (ie, from the 1800's on), the lower classes also tended to have sex earlier.

I really only know what I'm talking about in Victorian times, but while the girls of upper standing tended to marry in their very late teens-early twenties and treated sex as the Ultimate Big Deal, the common working women would often lose their virginity far earlier and engage in casual sex in a way more on par with what we consider "normal" behavior today.

So basically, when people rail about the loss of morals and the dissolution of society vis-a-vis sexual behavior, what they're really railing against is the fact that we have recently rejected aristocratic social structures, and are more and more adopting those of lower classes in the past.

Maybe if I write this now, while drunk, you'll all understand.

The_Omen
(wild eyed peoploid)
08/21/04 07:18 PM
Re: dolty new [re: JonnyManic]  

Why is that racist?

I cannot live, I cannot die

JonnyManic
(stardust savant)
08/24/04 05:06 PM
no outer peace without inner peace. man new [re: White Prism]  

In reply to:

Also, I do find it amusing that our resident Welsh outspoken leftie’s favourite band (the Manic Street, uh, Preachers) have used many interviews for such means, making them one of the most outspoken leftie bands. Are we to believe this connection is coincidental?


Heh, don't get me wrong, I don't think that artists shouldn't have views and opinions, but I don't like the idea that artists have some kind of duty beyond their artistic output. What if they are complete arseholes, I don't want to hear about that. I love David Lynch's movies and the themes and issues they explore but I don't think he then needs to tell me how Yogic Flying and meditation is going to save the world.

Jay, you are a capital ess, another ess I see...


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