I think it was in the Black Tie White Noise VHS that Bowie said that Al B. Sure wasn't his first option for the song. I always thought his first option was another rapper I know nothing about so I never gave it much thought... but the other day I was listening to the song (for some reason) and I realized Sure's voice is similar to Michael Jackson's. Could it be that Jackson was who Bowie had in mind when he wrote the song?

If so, do you think the song would have been better or worse with Jackson instead of Sure? It certainly would have been a bigger hit...

Bring back Bowie's moustache!

In a song from Tin Machine II, Bowie sings 'a small black someone jumps over the crazy white God, cranking up the volume of a Michael Jackson song'.

It seems Bowie had already considered Jackson in regards to race/music relations and 'cranking out' the black tie / white noise.

The other Jackson/Bowie connection from around this time was Iman featuring in Jackson's 'Remember The Time' video. She played an Egyptian Queen, and if I remember correctly, they kissed on the lips.

Bowie in Australia 2004 | Join the Community

If memory serves, Bowie's first choice as the co-vocalist was Lenny Kravitz but he couldn't make it due to conflicting schedules (he did later play guitar on Buddha Of Suburbia, of course).

KArt | Project Michelangelo | LiveJournal

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She played an Egyptian Queen

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Really? I used to love that video, but I never knew. I wish I could see it now...

Hello humans can you feel me thinking

I fly to the nearest bar

Thanks

Hello humans can you feel me thinking

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In a song from Tin Machine II, Bowie sings 'a small black someone jumps over the crazy white God, cranking up the volume of a Michael Jackson song'.

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This is the song where Bowie is making social comment on predatory paedophiles yes? I was convinced his reference to M.Jackson was connected to Jacksons alledged history of child molestation.

A ghastly topic of conversation at the worst of times.


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Rheingold
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London Bye Ta-Ta...

Has Jackson ever done a political song like BTWN? All I can think of is his "save the worlds children/rainforest" songs or music videos asking the world to leave him alone.

I wonder if the "real" duet version, whoever did it, got yanked because of the politcal ramifications of thie songs - and the fact it was going to be one of Bowie's "comeback" singles. If you were Kravitzs record company, and had the "Are You Going My Way" waiting to be released, would you want your artist on a 'hot potato' single?

You also think Bowie would work with MJ a decade after 2 naff singles with McCartney and a duet with Mick Jagger?

Also indirectly related is around this time MJ did a full cameo on the Simpsons(uncredited) when Homer went to the insane asylum.

BFP

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do you think the song would have been better or worse with Jackson instead of Sure?

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Doesn't really matter, that's a pretty lame song no matter who sings on it.

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It certainly would have been a bigger hit

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No doubt, but can you imagine how the course of Bowie's career would have gone if that had been his commercial comeback? Just think of all the crap that would have came from that.

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This is the song where Bowie is making social comment on predatory paedophiles yes? I was convinced his reference to M.Jackson was connected to Jacksons alledged history of child molestation.

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I always saw that song, Shopping For Girls, to be about the difficulties of young urban life. Also, that was written in 1991, and the earliest allegations of child molestation against Jackson came in 1993.

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Has Jackson ever done a political song like BTWN?

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Black and White is a political song disguised as pop.

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I wonder if the "real" duet version, whoever did it, got yanked because of the politcal ramifications of thie songs - and the fact it was going to be one of Bowie's "comeback" singles. If you were Kravitzs record company, and had the "Are You Going My Way" waiting to be released, would you want your artist on a 'hot potato' single?

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I doubt that's the case. Kravitz was doing political stuff back then, I'm sure it was just a scheduling conflict. He was anxious to work with Bowie, as proven by his contribution to Buddha a year later.

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No doubt, but can you imagine how the course of Bowie's career would have gone if that had been his commercial comeback? Just think of all the crap that would have came from that.

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Why? That suggests that Bowie would have reacted to it by pandering. Apart from one possible aberration in the 80s (and even there I'm not sure: if Bowie really thought Tonight would keep the Let's Dance crowd happy, he was wrong. Pandering would have been "Let's Dance Again", with Nile Rodgers and the same personnel again), when has Bowie ever done that?

Fame was his big breakthrough in the States, yet he followed up YA with S2S.

In fact, BTWN was a commercial comeback of sorts (#1 in the UK, and did well nearly everywhere except the States), yet as David Buckley points out, Bowie's response was not "more of the same" or even "milk it to death with singles", but to release Buddha, which was of very limited general appeal.

Slan libh,

Dara

"Life, except for the favoured few, like poets and children and athletes and saints, is pretty much of a bore" - Dr. George Sheehan

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I always saw that song, Shopping For Girls, to be about the difficulties of young urban life. Also, that was written in 1991, and the earliest allegations of child molestation against Jackson came in 1993.

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Thank you Fritz, that puts paid to my theory, time plays tricks obvioulsy I was convinced the allegations were in 1991.


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Rheingold
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London Bye Ta-Ta...

It always struck me as surprising that Bowie has not taken advantage of his stature in the rock industry to provide more high profile duets. A duet with someone like U2 in the early 90s would have been a Trans-Atlantic smash hit whilst leaving his credibility intact.

Bowie in Australia 2004 | Join the Community

It's not really too late for that to still happen, Adam.

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That suggests that Bowie would have reacted to it by pandering

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Pandering is not how I'd describe it, but I think Bowie's career has shown that many of his commercial hits have been followed by less successful attempts to repeat it, Tonight and even Reality being examples of that.

S2S is experimental, but it's not uncommercial. It was a huge hit, based mostly on the success of the radio friendly 'Golden Years.'

BTWN was a hit, but a very brief one. Granted, that's due mostly to the record company going bankrupt, but regardless the album did not succeed in bringing Bowie back to the spotlight in the way a huge commercial single might have.

My point was that if Bowie had had a huge commercial single, which a duet with Jackson would have been, it's not likely that albums as truly uncommercial as Buddha and Outside would have followed. He would have been worried, and may not have even thought, to go in so different a direction. After BTWN was only a mild hit, I think he decided to just do what he wanted.

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Doesn't really matter, that's a pretty lame song no matter who sings on it.

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I agree that with Michael Jackson it would have been just as crappy as it is now... but if its true that it was intended for Lenny Kravitz, then maybe originally Bowie concieved the song as something leaning more towards rock and not rap (or whatever the hell it is they're singing...), then changed it when Al B. Sure became involved.

Or maybe Kravitz heard Bowie's ideas for the song and thought "Fuck, I gotta find a way to dodge this one..."

Bring back Bowie's moustache!

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Buddha, which was of very limited general appeal.

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And availability.

Phrasing Is The Key

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maybe originally Bowie concieved the song as something leaning more towards rock and not rap (or whatever the hell it is they're singing...)

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What we do know is that the song was originally at a much faster tempo. The eventual slower tempo came about when Bowie accidentally had his tape player on half speed.

"Black Tie White Noise came from a little groove that David had - just a piano riff. It was in G minor and it had been around for a while. We developed it further and it began to sound great. Then he went off to write the lyrics. A couple of days later he called up from Switzerland. 'My God' he says, 'this is what you have to do'. Now, knowing David, I'm expecting the most outrageous instructions. So he tells me to transpose the entire track down a major third. I tried pointing out to him that it would get really slow, fat, slurry, wobbly and unclear. All he says is 'right'. When I told him that the bottom end would just be a wash, he says 'absolutely'. So we turned the pitch control down and he was happy."

- Nile Rogers, Sonics with Guitarist (Sept/Oct 93).

Apparantly, they had to re-perform certain things such as the guitar parts.

Bowie in Australia 2004 | Join the Community

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Or maybe Kravitz heard Bowie's ideas for the song and thought "Fuck, I gotta find a way to dodge this one..."

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Are you implying that Lenny Kravitz has taste?


MEAT! GIBLETS! AARRRGH!

Hey! He sings "Are you gonna go my way" and... uh...

Bring back Bowie's moustache!

Has MJ ever prefessed his DB fandom?

I can only think of the backstage photo from the 1983 Serious moonlight performance in LA.

BFP

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Has MJ ever prefessed his DB fandom?

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Im under the distinct impression the only person Michael Jackson likes? Is himself a man possessed with himself

And I for one am very pleased Bowie never recorded anything with him.

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Rheingold
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London Bye Ta-Ta...

i'm pretty sure that tupac shakur was the original choice to duet on btwn.

hasselhoff! you are nothing without your robot car. nothing!

Maybe Bowie was trying to elbow a Chic reunion out of Nile Rodgers on BTWN.

BFP

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What we do know is that the song was originally at a much faster tempo...

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I never knew this, but always thought it sounded better at a faster speed. When the single came out, I would often listen to the 12" BTWN at 45rpm - the intro just sounded so much better....funky as hell.

iccy

"God thinks he's all that and a bag of chips."- David Bowie

With some handy software you can get the MP3 file of BTWN and make it faster, without any instruments or vocals going high pitch. This should make a really interesting and probably much better version of the song. Is anyone up for trying this? If not I will give it a go and upload it?

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Thoughts Of A Potential Superman

Get out of my mind! All of you!!

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/nadrummer/BTWN/

It will certainly take some getting used to after hearing the normal version, but I think somebody might be able to do a better job.

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Thoughts Of A Potential Superman

Get out of my mind! All of you!!

Edited by jump93 on 01/21/05 08:03 AM (server time).

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Has MJ ever prefessed his DB fandom?

I can only think of the backstage photo from the 1983 Serious moonlight performance in LA.

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Bowie first met MJ in LA during the Diamonds Dogs tour stop. As I recall, Michael requested that he wanted to meet David at the time as he was fascinated by the elaborate show.

Im getting a blank screen when I click the URL Mike



London Bye Ta-Ta...

When I try clicking on it, it just loads up this website

Just try copying and pasting the link into your browser instead...

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Thoughts Of A Potential Superman

Get out of my mind! All of you!!

Although I can't stand Bono, I always liked his quote "I think David Bowie wants to be Michael jackson and Picasso"

And I don't know if Michael Jackson would work well on BTWN, although that song's probably the closest to the sound Michael was doing at the time with his Dangerous album. I think they could've made some amazing pop music, had they worked together in the early 80s.

Thanks for doing that, jump93... I like it a lot. It's a keeper.

Bring back Bowie's moustache!

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Thoughts Of A Potential Superman

Get out of my mind! All of you!!

Not bad, although I wouldn't perhaps made it quite that fast, it sounds a bit too hurried.

KArt | Project Michelangelo | LiveJournal

Yeah, it just sounds like its been speeded up to be honest. Although it might have been improved had it been at this speed, it doesn't make it a particularly good song.

I have been listening to the fast version for days.
This afternoon I played the original version, and it actually sounded better than the speeded up version

I like the normal version anyway.

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Thoughts Of A Potential Superman

Get out of my mind! All of you!!

Thank you jump93. You've saved me ever having to play BTWN on my old LP at 45rpm ever again!

iccy

"God thinks he's all that and a bag of chips."- David Bowie

Wow, the intro does sound way better at the increased speed. The rest of the song sounds about as bad as the original.

It does sound really hurried... I'm guessing some parts were not only reperformed, but also rewritten for the changed speed, as a lot of it just doesn't sound remotely natural at this speed.

Thanks for putting this together, jump. An interesting item, to say the least.

The dreams in which I'm dying are the best I've ever had.

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Just try copying and pasting the link into your browser instead...

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Brilliant I've only just discovered your reply Mike from this sunken thread.

It's actually very funky when played at this speed, although Im not to sure the state Mr Bowie would end up in? performing at this speed



London Bye Ta-Ta...