I'll try again: half of the Dublin show were songs that were less known or new.

In this light, it's not a fair comparison to the Sound & Vision tour - as the sets were much shorter...

So how does that half of the show cater for big hits?
I do not compare this simple statistic to any other tour and have not done so before.

I've gone over this 18 million times! You should read what I'm saying.

If you had seen the S&V tour you would see the difference in attitude between then and now.

You can't be serious? Seeing people at a couple of German concerts as criteria for estimating how many people are into him now than before is the stupidest way of trying to figure out who's into his music at any given point in his career that I've ever heard.

Regardless of statistics as it is not just what you play but also how you do it.

You're bringing other factors into this which shouldn't be there and making things more confusing than they really are. I'm not talking about how the songs are performed, I'm talking about the hits that are played.

As I said before, it is certainly not an adventurous event as the Outside tour was - it is mainly a balanced programm between all Bowie has stood for in the past decades. Hits included.

I don't think so.

...That doesn't necessarily mean they are idiots and Collins fans.

I didn't say they were idiots. And I'm not saying that all of them are actual "Collins" fans because the phrase "Phil Collins" fans is a metaphor for commercially minded music consumers, obviously.

I'd rather say that he got many of those folks back that were into him up til Scary Monsters and probably through to "Let's Dance".

Well, the numbers show that much of the mid-eighties demographic is back.

At least here in Germany. Those people are probably a bit older than you and were drawn into his stuff by his 70s albums. Not the worst of music. And far from Collins pop.

That's debatable.


The Collins factor in his audience is not necessarily determined by the number of people turning out to see him.

Yes it is. The numbers don't lie.

In the late 70s he easily sold out the Deutschlandhalle, which was the largest indoor venue in Berlin at the time. On the "Outside" tour that hall was only about half full. Following your theories all those who packed the place in the late 70s (and all those who failed to get tickets) must have been into something similar to Phil Collins.

DB didn't have his "Phil Collins" audience until the eighties. On the Serious Moonlight tour DB sold out the Waldbuhne in Berlin to 22,500. The Deutschlandhalle holds around 10,000 and is much smaller - if there was that much more of a demand in '78, there would've been a second show.


But I am sure they were far more into what certainly was one of Bowie's best and most adventurous phases and not into any assumed mainstream pop. And they did not like that much what he was doing in the 90s.

Well, I'm sure that my socks were cleaned last night.

They didn't go with him in such vast amounts during the "Outside" phase which may disqualify them in your view but certainly doesn't necessarily lead to Collins fanship.

On the Outside tour, there were mostly to nearly all hard-core fans (excluding NIN's fan base).

The one thing that put Bowie massively back into the focus of his older fans (and hopefully a few younger ones as well) was definitely "Heathen". It sold sold very well in Germany after it got very postive reviews and after Bowie promoted it with TV appearances and the short tour.

So, all of his older fans got back into him on this tour because of one country's interest in a fairly new album???

I don't have figures to prove it but what I experienced at the four different Heathen/Reality gigs I saw in Germany was that it was those he had lost during the later 80s and with the Outside endeavours who returned to current shows. You may not share those people's taste but you can hardly call them Collins fans. And to get some proof beyond numbers go and listen to the Berlin Reality boot. And then come back and tell me the folks only got off on China Girl.

I didn't say they only got off on China Girl. And yeah, I know..those audience members were really shaking it to TMWSTW, The Lonliest Guy, Fantastic Voyage, Days, etc.! Give me a break!

...don't tell god your plans...

Edited by NoControl on 02/10/04 05:35 PM (server time).